NEC And Other Standards

[CEDEng]

Philosophical question here at work today:

When following standards such as NEC (or in the case of machines NFPA79), and farther, international standards (ISO, CE-based, etc...) - if you "kind of" follow it - are you following it?

My instinct is to be black and white: Is this job 100% following the standard? EVERYTHING? No? Then you 100% did NOT follow the standard. Follow? (think civil suit, if necessary, though that isn't the case)

Opinions?

 

[jumper]

FYI, the NEC is a model code, not a standard. The NFPA publishes both

From the NFPA wesite:

What is a code? What is a standard?
The earliest building code is thought to have been developed sometime between 1955 B.C. and 1913 B.C., during the reign of King Hammurabi of Babylon. The code didn’t specify how to build a building - but laid out the consequences of not building well. If a house fell and killed the owner or his child, then the builder, or his child, would be slain in retaliation.

Today’s codes are more elaborate, and less punitive. But like Hammurabi’s code, they express society’s will on a particular technical issue, specifying a desired outcome.
•A code is a model, a set of rules that knowledgeable people recommend for others to follow. It is not a law, but can be adopted into law.
•A standard tends be a more detailed elaboration, the nuts and bolts of meeting a code.

One way of looking at the differences between codes and standards is that a code tells you what you need to do, and a standards tells you how to do it. A code may say that a building must have a fire-alarm system. The standard will spell out what kind of system and how it must work. The NFPA has few codes; most of its documents are standard.

http://www.nfpa.org/press-room/reporters-guide-to-fire-and-nfpa/about-codes-and-standards

 

[luckylerado]

Philosophical question here at work today:

When following standards such as NEC (or in the case of machines NFPA79), and farther, international standards (ISO, CE-based, etc...) - if you "kind of" follow it - are you following it?

My instinct is to be black and white: Is this job 100% following the standard? EVERYTHING? No? Then you 100% did NOT follow the standard. Follow? (think civil suit, if necessary, though that isn't the case)

Opinions?

It is to code or it is not IMO. Some places will not enforce any code therefore you might pass an inspection but still not be to code.

I struggle with this with the term DONE. There is only one definition of the word done and for whatever reason many people do not know it.

"Yeah, it's done... Except...."
"Yeah, it's to code.... Except...."

:slaphead:

 

[K8MHZ]

It is to code or it is not IMO. Some places will not enforce any code therefore you might pass an inspection but still not be to code.

I struggle with this with the term DONE. There is only one definition of the word done and for whatever reason many people do not know it.

"Yeah, it's done... Except...."
"Yeah, it's to code.... Except...."

:slaphead:

So how do you handle a PVC mast going into the top of a meter socket? A T/A into the flange is not NEC acceptable, but I have never seen it done any other way.

 

[luckylerado]

So how do you handle a PVC mast going into the top of a meter socket? A T/A into the flange is not NEC acceptable, but I have never seen it done any other way.

I cannot say that I have built a PVC mast. Regardless it is a perfect example. The inspector can slap a sticker on it and call it compliant but in the end if it does not meet the requirements of the code, whatever it is, then it is simply incorrect to say that you followed the code.

 

[K8MHZ]

I cannot say that I have built a PVC mast. Regardless it is a perfect example. The inspector can slap a sticker on it and call it compliant but in the end if it does not meet the requirements of the code, whatever it is, then it is simply incorrect to say that you followed the code.

Very common around here. I have one on my house.

The NEC accepted way, to me and apparently the inspectors, is much worse than the way we have been doing it.

If I am correct, the compliant NEC way would be to screw a close RMC nipple into the hub, then use a female RMC/PVC T/A, then put the PVC conduit into the T/A.

 

[CEDEng]

Not sure if we're arriving at a conclusion here!

Perhaps NEC was a bad example, since it is a Code (right there at the "C") and not a standard like NFPA79 ("Electrical standard...").

I don't know that it matters except for precision of prose. My struggle remains the same: Is it as black and white as, "It's completely right, or it's all wrong?"

I was trying to get as wide of viewpoint as possible, but I'll use a specific example. NFPA79 is a "standard" (not the law, but a Good Idea, nonetheless). NFPA79 says I will use a certain AWG for a certain current. Or, more subtle, 13.1... says cable ties must be cut flush. That's very subtle. So, if I leave several cable ties uncut, then later in life my machine fails in a dangerous manner, will the judge agree I DID or I DID NOT follow NFPA79? Because "kind of" followed it is probably not going to get it...or is it?

If a customer insists you follow such-n-such a standard, and then a subtle point is missed...am I voiding this contract?

It's meant to spark a discussion here, mostly about what is reasonable and and what is impractical.

 

[cowboyjwc]

It is to code or it is not IMO. Some places will not enforce any code therefore you might pass an inspection but still not be to code.

I struggle with this with the term DONE. There is only one definition of the word done and for whatever reason many people do not know it.

"Yeah, it's done... Except...."
"Yeah, it's to code.... Except...."

:slaphead:

:lol: I always love when I get called and asked "how done do I have to be for final?":?

 

[cowboyjwc]

So how do you handle a PVC mast going into the top of a meter socket? A T/A into the flange is not NEC acceptable, but I have never seen it done any other way.

Here that would fall under a standard. The local utility does not allow PVC as a mast, nor EMT, they require the mast to be RMC. So even if I think it's ok by code, I cannot allow it per the POCO standard.

 

[infinity]

V
If I am correct, the compliant NEC way would be to screw a close RMC nipple into the hub, then use a female RMC/PVC T/A, then put the PVC conduit into the T/A.

That would be one code complaint method but IMO completely asinine. :roll: