NEC Art 210.52.C.1-Kitchen counter recept

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We have a small war raging in our office. If the kitchen counter adjoins a full height wing wall...does the 2'-4'-2' spacing start from the beginning of that wing wall...or from the end of the counter itself? I tried to paste a jpg here to make it clear, but have not figured out how to do this. thx
 
A very good question, and I think I know what you mean. If there's a wall at the end of the counter, do you need to put an outlet on it to maintain the 2' rule? It would be hard for me to believe the writers of the Code intended that an outlet would be required at the end of the counter, in addition to the one that's already 2' from the end of the counter. That would seem silly. If that were true, then what about a counter that just ends, and is not up against a wall? Do you put one on the side like an island or penninsula? If so then there's a lot of houses in the U.S. that are in violation. Still, if you go strictly according to the wording in 210.52(C)(1), then you would have to follow the wall line as it comes around the end of the counter. I had one time an inspector made me do this, but that was the only time.

Maybe someone else has another idea about this.
 
There is an existing thread about this subject, to sum it up, the way the code is worded, yes you would need to start at the wing wall, but i've yet to meet an electrician that does...:grin:
 
The counter space, IMO starts where the edge of the counter begins. I would not consider the wall that the counter butts up to. If that were the case, and its not, you would have to consider the 2' feet of depth at the other end that doesn't butt a wall.

If the wall and cabinet turned 90 degrees for a distance of say 3' then you would need one within 2' of the edge of the peninsula.
 
gravy said:
I tried to paste a jpg here to make it clear, but have not figured out how to do this.
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First, you get an account with an Internet site that allows you to post pictures. I use both www.pbase.com and www.photobucket.com. There are several others. Google has one called picasa, or something like that. Most are free, though they will give you additional storage space and some other benefits if you send them 20 bucks or so a year. Their site will tell you the process to use to upload your picture.

Once the image is posted, bring it up on your screen. Right click, select "Properties," and copy the address line (URL) from within the Properties dialog box. Paste that into your message on this Forum.
 
charlie b said:

First, you get an account with an Internet site that allows you to post pictures. I use both www.pbase.com and www.photobucket.com. There are several others. Google has one called picasa, or something like that. Most are free, though they will give you additional storage space and some other benefits if you send them 20 bucks or so a year. Their site will tell you the process to use to upload your picture.

Once the image is posted, bring it up on your screen. Right click, select "Properties," and copy the address line (URL) from within the Properties dialog box. Paste that into your message on this Forum.
Click to expand...
thanks charlie b for the instructions...will do.

the thread replies sound very much like the war we have in our office. based on one of the replies that an inspector required it on one project, I would say for the cost of one receptacle installed in that wing wall, that you are avoiding a potential huge change order for 300-condo units done incorrectly.

thanks for the replies.

gravy
 
gravy said:
. . . I would say for the cost of one receptacle installed in that wing wall, that you are avoiding a potential huge change order for 300-condo units done incorrectly.
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On the other hand, you may be spending money on 300 receptacles that are not needed.

I still cannot visualize the setup. Are you talking about the space at the far edge of the counter, where the countertop surface curves down towards the floor? Is this space near a wall, and does that wall extend farther than the 24 inches or so that represents the depth of the countertop? If so, I don't think that wall needs a receptacle at countertop height. But if the wing wall extends more than 24 inches past the front of the countertop, then you will need one or more receptacles at 18 inches above the floor, as you would for any "normal" wall. I may have this all wrong, because I may have the picture wrong.
 
The code says horizontal wall space where no point is longer thatn 24".
If your wall takes a turn and there isnt a receptacle within 48 " which would include the wall space then you would have to add one. your measurement goes from 24" in both directions.The thing to do is to put a receptacle in the turning wall near the back and buy yourself 4 feet of wall space from there and you are covered on the 2' presumng a 2' wall.
My inspector on a condo project recently counted the bar overhang and he of course had me add one so that there wasnt more than 24" from the end of the counter. Also dont forget the receptacle on the other side.

While we are talking spaceing, whats everyones take on bath receptacles. If you have an offset basin where their is say 12" of space on the right and 3'1" on the left why is it safer (according to code) to put your gfi on the right side and drag your hairdryer cord across the sink than it is to put it on the left side where it is 1" out of code but a heck of alot safer place.?
 
Is this what you're descibing? The receptacle at the bottom right?

1099601197_2.jpg
 
Actually, Trevor, I think we are talking about the receptacle that is not shown, the one that would go (if it were required, as I think it is not) on the short horizontal blue line at the very bottom of the right side. I think that the OP was saying that the short wall is, in his case, a longer wall, and that it extends beyond the front edge of the countertop.
 
I was thinking that the receptacle on the bottom right would satisfy the 24" requirement and the wall Charlie mentioned does not require a receptacle.
 
infinity said:
I was thinking that the receptacle on the bottom right would satisfy the 24" requirement and the wall Charlie mentioned does not require a receptacle.
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That is the question, does the wall Charlie mentioned start the 2', most people believe it does not. but if you read 210.52(C)(1) it clearly says that no point along the wall line is more than 24" measured horizontally from a receptacle outlet in that space.


So in that picture it clearly needs another receptacle along the blue portion...
 
stickboy1375 said:
So in that picture it clearly needs another receptacle along the blue portion...
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I disagree. If it clearly needed one, it would clearly have one. :)

If the space between the end wall and the sink was both 24" wide and deep, then two would be needed there, unless you could tuck one directly into the corner.
 
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stickboy1375 said:
. . . but if you read 210.52(C)(1) it clearly says that no point along the wall line is more than 24" measured horizontally from a receptacle outlet in that space. So in that picture it clearly needs another receptacle along the blue portion...
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I agree with Larry?s disagreeing with this statement.

To me, the key is not the phrase ?wall line,? as shown in bold in your post. Rather, the key is the phrase ?wall counter spaces,? as shown in bold in the NEC at the beginning of the article you quoted. That phrase is not defined in the NEC. When we are talking about floor lines, there is an explanation of the intended meaning of ?wall space.? But that explanation would not apply to countertops, since it involves the floor.

My view is that the ?wall counter spaces? are restricted to the space behind, and not to the side of, the countertop. Look again at the image that Trevor posted.

(1) The horizontal line at the top right is the back of the horizontal run of countertop.

(2) The vertical line at the top right is the back of the vertical run of countertop.

(3) The horizontal line at the bottom right is the side of the vertical run of countertop.

The wall space behind items (1) and (2) are included in the ?wall counter spaces? that need receptacles. The wall space to the side of item (3) is not. That, at least, is how I see it.
 
charlie b said:
I agree with Larry?s disagreeing with this statement.

The wall space behind items (1) and (2) are included in the ?wall counter spaces? that need receptacles. The wall space to the side of item (3) is not. That, at least, is how I see it.
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That's how I see it also. I believe that Mike would have included an additional receptacle in his graphic if required. If I recall correctly Mike actually commented on this exact subject/graphic a few years ago.
 
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