NEC Code Graphic

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charlie b

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Re: NEC Code Graphic

It's a good question. The answer starts with recognition that the 480-120/208 volt transformer creates a 30 degree difference between the primary and secondary voltages. Therefore, it is incorrect to add 277 to 120, and get 397. You must add "277 (at an angle of 0 degrees)" to "120 (at an angle of 30 degrees)." I calculate the result as 385.7 volts, so I?ll accept the ?380? as being sufficiently accurate for the purposes of Mike's illustration.
 

ranger12

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Re: NEC Code Graphic

Charlie B could you walk us through this calculation with a detailed explanation?I get the sense that this is important to understand for learning purposes but frankly i am a little bit lost here.Obviously the calculation has a trig function in it.I am just not sure which one.Thanks :confused:
 

paul32

Senior Member
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Minnesota
Re: NEC Code Graphic

Of the 3 different phases, one would be 90 degrees difference instead of 30, wouldn't it? Or is there some code that would prevent that case. I get 302 for that case so still a violation.
 

charlie b

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Re: NEC Code Graphic

Originally posted by paul32:Of the 3 different phases, one would be 90 degrees difference instead of 30, wouldn't it? I get 302 for that case so still a violation.
True, and I concur with your answer (I got 301.9 volts). That covers two of the three cases. The third case has an angle of 150 degrees, and the resultant voltage is 183.2.

For those who don?t follow what I mean by the three ?cases,? consider that the that 120 volt circuit passing through this box is from Phase A. The 277 volt circuit can be either from Phase A (result: 385.6 volts between circuits), or from Phase B (result: 183.2 volts between circuits), or from Phase C (result: 301.9 volts between circuits).
 

charlie b

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Re: NEC Code Graphic

Originally posted by ranger12: Charlie B could you walk us through this calculation with a detailed explanation?
That?s a tall order, especially since I have no skill at creating a figure and posting it on an Internet site. So I?ll try just telling you how to draw the figure yourself. Take your compass, and draw a circle that has a radius of 2.77 inches. OK, make it two and three quarters inches, and we?ll call it good enough. From the center of the circle, draw a horizontal line to the edge of the circle, put an arrow tip where it hits the circle, and label that point ?A? (use a capital letter). Follow the circle around clockwise until you go one third of the way (120 degrees clockwise), mark the point with ?B,? and draw an arrow from the center to ?B.? Continue following the circle around clockwise until you have gone a total of two thirds of the way (240 degrees clockwise), mark the point with ?C,? and draw an arrow from the center to ?C.? Now erase the circle, leaving only the arrows.

Next, start from the center, and draw another arrow 30 degrees downwards (clockwise) from arrow ?A.? Make it?s length 1.20 inches (call it one and one quarter inches). Mark its arrow tip with a small case ?a.? Draw similar arrows, each 1.20 inches long, one that is 30 degrees clockwise from arrow ?B? (call this new one arrow ?b?) and the other 30 degrees clockwise from arrow ?C? (call this new one arrow ?c?). What you see is the voltage relationship between a 480/277 volt primary (the capital letter arrows) and a 120/208 volt secondary (the lower case letter arrows). Note that the angle between arrow ?A? and arrow ?b? is the 90 degrees that paul32 had mentioned in an earlier post.

You can measure each of the three ?cases? (see my earlier post) as follows. Imagine copying the arrow ?a? (include from its center dot to its arrow head), moving it without changing the direction in which it is pointing, and pasting the copy so that the center of arrow ?a? is at the arrow point of arrow ?A.? Now measure from the center of the original circle to the tip of the new location of arrow ?a.? You should get the 3.856 inches (just under 4 inches) that I have been discussing. You can also move a copy of arrow ?a? to the tip of arrow ?B? and to the tip of arrow ?C,? and you should be able to measure the 3.02 and the 1.83 inches that I mention in the earlier post.

As to the trigonometry, it?s more complicated than most electricians will ever need to use. But the ?simplest? way to do the calculation is to use the ?Law of Cosines.? Go back to the sketch of the first time you copied and pasted arrow ?a? to the tip of arrow ?A.? You have a triangle formed by the center of the original circle, point ?A,? and the new location of point ?a.? Label the 277 volt side as ?Side X,? then label the 120 volt side as ?Side Y,? and finally label the unknown voltage side as ?Side Z.? The angle between Side X and Side Y is 150 degrees (measure it, if you are unsure). The Law of Cosines states,

Z*2 = X*2 + Y*2 minus (2) times (X) times (Y) times (the cosine of the angle between X and Y).

If this looks a bit like the Pythagorean Theorem, it should. In a right triangle, the angle of interest is 90 degrees, and the cosine of 90 degree is zero. So that last term drops out, and leaves you with Z*2 = X*2 + Y*2.

In our case, Z*2 = 277*2 + 120*2 minus (2) times (277) times (120) times (cosine 150).
Solving gives you Z = 385.6.

QED
 

paul32

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Re: NEC Code Graphic

When I made my previous post I was thinking the other 2 phases were the same. Now I agree with the 3 cases, so in the original picture, if the appropriate phases were used to result in the 183 volts instead of 300+ I assume that is allowed by code to have the two switches in a box.
 

charlie b

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Lockport, IL
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Re: NEC Code Graphic

I don?t know of any code section that it would violate. However, I still think it would be a bad idea. All you would need is for someone to want to move breakers around, perhaps to make way for a new single phase, 2-pole load. There would be no way for them to know that switching a breaker from Phase C to Phase A could create a safety hazard somewhere in an outlet box.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Re: NEC Code Graphic

I agree Charlie as it being a bad idea but this happens all the time when you have a switch from one circuit (A phase) and another switch from another that is on the B phase gained in the same box. unless we are very carfull in laying out circuits in a panel it's not hard to have a two or three gain box with 240 volts between the switch's. and when we have a four, five or six gain box it's next to impossable to keep them on the same phase.

Whoops I see now you are only talking about when there is 480/277 and 208/120 in the same building. and going over the 300 volt limit.

[ December 09, 2003, 08:50 PM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]
 
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