NEC - Is it Minimum Requirements or Gospel?

[kingpb]

OK, curious minds want to know:

Why is it that electrical Contractor's have gotten so used to doing only the bare minimum required by the NEC? I thought the NEC was to set a minimum level of installation to remain safe; not to set a minimum level of quality.

I understand competitiveness, and trying to keep the price down. But, what I don't understand, is it seems in doing so, cheap and dirty has become more acceptable, over practical and reasonable. The funny thing is that the EC's are the only one's suffering. The GC just turns around and marks-up your price, so he doesn't lose anything.

Why are you guys so willing to cut each others throats and work for such low profit margins? Maybe if enough EC's go out of business, the industry as a whole would be better off.

Over the years, I have seen new products come out to improve productivity, and simplify the task. I have also seen products intended to do nothing but make it cheap. These two things combined have somehow turned into bare bones, cheap and dirty. Thank goodness I am in the industrial market, where schedule and quality are still number one.

There is no such thing as faster, better, cheaper only two of the three can ever be achieved at once:

Faster + Cheaper will never equal Better.

To all the inspectors out there, help your citie's adopt practices that are over and above the Code. This used to be pretty common. I thought your job was to help protect the public, unfortunately now it just has to meet the MINIMUM. We need to get back to quality and practical !!!!!

OK lets hear it................

 

[hockeyoligist2]

Quote> Thank goodness I am in the industrial market, where schedule and quality are still number one.<Quote


Me too! I don't have to cut corners, and I don't have to go back and "redo". The minimum NEC standards can come back and bite you in the Butt. If I pull a 12 (minimum for the circuit) and cold footed Jane plugs in a big ol' "under desk heater" then who's fault is it? Mine!

 

[iwire]

Why is it that electrical Contractor's have gotten so used to doing only the bare minimum required by the NEC?

Because we want to eat and house our families.

Because the majority of the customers want to have the fancy wall finish, the great landscaping, the terrazzo floor but are not at all impressed with an electrical system that exceeds the minimum requirements to pass inspection.

Because even once the contract is given out they ask for more 'value engineering'

I thought the NEC was to set a minimum level of installation to remain safe; not to set a minimum level of quality.

I agree

I understand competitiveness, and trying to keep the price down.

I don't see how you can possibly understand the situation ECs are faced with as you have not walked a mile in their shoes.

The funny thing is that the EC's are the only one's suffering. The GC just turns around and marks-up your price, so he doesn't lose anything.

To a point but the GC will not get the work if their price is to high.

Why are you guys so willing to cut each others throats and work for such low profit margins?

That pesky eating thing again.

Maybe if enough EC's go out of business, the industry as a whole would be better off.

Possibly

Thank goodness I am in the industrial market, where schedule and quality are still number one.

Don't kid yourself, many of those areas are also getting cheaper.

You may be lucky enough to work for a firm that only works on top quality jobs. That is great, I am jealous.

Faster + Cheaper will never equal Better.

That is in the eye of the beholder, from many customers view point cheaper, faster is not only better but the only goal.

To all the inspectors out there, help your citie's adopt practices that are over and above the Code.

IMO that is just plain wrong, it is entirely up to the person paying the bill if they want a Geo or a Mercedes. (Assuming both meet safety minimums)

I thought your job was to help protect the public,

My job is to do the work the customer hired me for within the rules and codes that are in place.

OK lets hear it................

You asked.

We live in a Walmart world, we don't have to like it but we need to understand that is where we are.

 

[allenwayne]

Very well put Bob.....Even wally world as my kids call it is cutting back now.....No more layaways after 11/19/06

 

[iwire]

By the way have you noticed the name of this Forum?

"Mike Holt's Code Forum"

I believe Mr Holt's intent was to help educate folks on the NEC requirements, not teach design or engineering.

To that end when someone asks

'What is the absolutely smallest conductor I can use to supply X?"

I tell them my opinion of the what the NEC requires.

It may not be how I would chose to do it and it may not be efficient, convenient, or adequate for good service or future expansion of electrical use.

But it will be the answer to the question they asked.

IMO before we can start to go beyond code minimums we need know what those minimums are.

As they say, knowledge is power.

 

[jwelectric]

You go Bob!!!

 

[ceknight]

Why is it that electrical Contractor's have gotten so used to doing only the bare minimum required by the NEC? I thought the NEC was to set a minimum level of installation to remain safe; not to set a minimum level of quality.

What kind of quality do you have in mind?

You're implying that there's a big gulf between a NEC-compliant installation and a good-quality installation, and I don't see the distinction very clearly. You can do very good quality work installing to NEC minimums, no?

Perhaps you're talking about upselling to better fixtures and receptacles? All of that stuff is window dressing on a good installation -- no matter how expensive the fixtures, you can still have a good-quality installation to NEC minimums.

Or maybe you mean designing installations for future anticipated capacity? If so, well, that's really a design issue. That installation can be done to just as high a workmanship standard as a minimum-required installation can be.

So yeah, I'm a bit curious how you're defining "quality" here. If it's workmanship, well, I don't see a conflict there between code minimums and quality. And if it's not workmanship you're talking about, I guess I really don't know what sense of "quality" will put an EC at odds with a safe, code-minimum installation.

I guess what I really don't understand is why following NEC to the letter results in a "cheap and dirty" installation. Mine sure as heck aren't.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

We live in a Walmart world, we don't have to like it but we need to understand that is where we are.

But we all need to do what we can to change that or we will all be getting $10/hour and no benifits.
Don

 

[jwelectric]

But we all need to do what we can to change that or we will all be getting $10/hour and no benifits.
Don

I want a raise right now!!!!!!!!!!!!

10 x 40 = $400 a week.

Yea. I want a raise right now!!!!!

 

[iwire]

But we all need to do what we can to change that or we will all be getting $10/hour and no benifits.
Don

I agree that is possible.

How would an EC refusing to wire a building to the NEC minimums change that?

The attitude that has to change on this issue is the attitude of the consumer.

 

[kingpb]

Bob,

I understand your points, but I truly think it goes beyond that. The general public, (as well as probably some ECs, yipe!) don't really understand that there are a lot of choices that could be had. I think it stems from the fact that the electrical system is invisible to most HO's, so to speak. Out of sight, out of mind. And what they do know, is from DIY clinics at the big box stores.

I really think if EC's were more diligent about polishing up their image and do a little upfront marketing, and strategizing, HO could be better informed about their choices. Demand follows knowledge, and GC's would be forced to offer more.

Think about it, when someone sits down to talk about options in a developers model home or office, your given the opportunity to select tile, appliances, counter tops, cabinets, sinks, faucets, etc. Why are there no electrical choices? Because no one has taken the time to help educate the GC, or the HO.

Everybody in my neighborhood says they had no options for lighting, they all hate the cheap toggle type switches and cheap outlets. Most have open floor plans, but no floor receptacle to plug in a lamp, only a nice single overhead "outlet" for a 400 sqft of living space, please.......they would like under cabinet lighting, prewired for surround sound, more phone jacks, the list goes on and on. Why weren't these offered as options? Poor marketing, is why. The EC didn't take the time to educate the builder. it's all about marketing and awareness.

People are in business to provide a service, if you lose sight of the customer, and what they want, you will end up with no repeat business, and a poor reputation.

BTW: I did walk in the EC shoes, for close to 11 years, prior to becoming an engineer. I never seemed to have much difficulty in getting people to pay more, by simply letting them know what their choices were. I catered to what they wanted and was able to feed, cloth, and house myself quite adequately.

I now design power plants, they are not cheap. We do not use the NEC (utility and all) but by and large because the NEC minimums are not acceptable in this industry, thusly everything is engineered.

 

[sceepe]

Thats the EE's Job. Engineers require many things that are above and beyond the NEC required minimums in their specifications. However, we have to be able to justify every one of them. We work with the owner to determine what he wants and then work with the GC to VE as necessary.

If you let your Elec contractor do the design he is forced into a situation where he has to go with the minimum in order to get the job. The EE has to balance first cost vs long term performance / owner satisfaction. The EE has no financial benefit from giving the owner the minimum required by code.

 

[kingpb]

OK, good point.

Perhaps someone can describe the process for who and how the residential home is designed, and bid.

 

[iwire]

OK, good point.

Perhaps someone can describe the process for who and how the residential home is designed, and bid.

I was not aware this discussion was only about homes.

I don't know a lot about that. It seems there are custom homes where many of the ECs here talk of successful up selling of dimers, fixtures, A/V and IT wiring etc.

Than there is the much larger portion of homes built for a developer. In this case they are cookie cutter homes without extras. There is no up selling possible.

 

[steve66]

OK, good point.

Perhaps someone can describe the process for who and how the residential home is designed, and bid.

Most are not pre-designed, but designed as the contractor goes along. (Electrical, I mean)

For the one house I saw that was actually designed by an engineer, it goes like this:

1. The enginner spends a lot of time making drawings to show the code minimum. Then he guesses at other things the homeowner might want and adds those to the drawings.

2. The contractor installs whatever he wants.

 

[allenwayne]

On high ended homes I always do a walk through with the HO.I suggest and they decide.I did a walk through on a home with a woman not to long ago.By the time it was done she added about $4,000.00 to the job.The husband asked what will be the cost ???? My answer was simple it`s only money the goverment prints it every day.Besides your wife has what she wants.So pay now or pay 3 fold later for the same thing..That statement works very well for extras.

 

[kingpb]

On high ended homes I always do a walk through with the HO.

What dollar per sqft home would you consider as being highend?

Would you consider $145/sqft higher end?

 

[acrwc10]

meeting the NEC minimum is high above "a wal-mart world" in my humble opinion. Have you noticed how long a shirt from Wal-Mart lasts? Not as long as a NEC minimum.

 

[iwire]

meeting the NEC minimum is high above "a wal-mart world" in my humble opinion. Have you noticed how long a shirt from Wal-Mart lasts? Not as long as a NEC minimum.

very good

 

[hardworkingstiff]

You can do very good quality work installing to NEC minimums, no?



So yeah, I'm a bit curious how you're defining "quality" here. If it's workmanship, well, I don't see a conflict there between code minimums and quality.

I guess what I really don't understand is why following NEC to the letter results in a "cheap and dirty" installation. Mine sure as heck aren't.

I agree with Chris!

The NEC (bare minimum) is a pretty good standard by itself.