Need a little help...

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1793

1793

Senior Member
Location
Louisville, Kentucky
Occupation
Inspector
I have been asked to bid on a project to add a 200amp 3phase service to a commercial, srtip store. There are currently three meters, house and two tenant meters each is 200 amp. See Photo

The property owners are going to split one of the two stores so a new 200amp service is needed.


I would like to know how to figure if the existing service can handle this addition? I am unable to read the wire size of the feeder that is supplying these services and on top of that, is there enough room in the 4'x8"x8" trough for this addition?
See Photo
See Photo
See Photo

Any input will be greatly appreciated.
Additional photo links

[ February 15, 2006, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: 1793 ]
 
Re: Need a little help...

As the load is not really changing the service will probably be OK.

The only real way to know is load calculations or past load readings.
 
Re: Need a little help...

I'm suprised the existing meters are that close to gound level... aren't they supposed to be between 5' and 6' high?

[ February 16, 2006, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: DaveTap ]
 
Re: Need a little help...

Center of the meter socket in my area is from 4'6" to 6'6". The service in the photo would be buried in snow in my area.
 
Re: Need a little help...

As always things change. After looking into the property division a little closer I have come up with the following:

A- The larger of the two stores will use the
existing service.

B- The second store will only be 1,100 sqft. if
I use Article 220 Table 220.12 Stores 3va I
get 3,300va. So I figure a 100amp service is all that will be needed.

I thought I would come off of the "Common Area" panel with a 100 amp breaker to a sub-panel indoors at the new store. Property Owner and new tenant will share expenses.

Does anyone see a problem with this proposal?
 
Re: Need a little help...

Have you figured in the heat/ac? Any showroom lighting? Water heater, sign, ???

100-amps may be sufficient, but it appears you are just using the 3300 VA as your basis.
 
Re: Need a little help...

Don't mean to nitpick, but let me know if this is right:
Today's meters: House(1); Tenant1(1); Tenant2(1)
Original question plan: House(1); Tenant1(1); Tenant2(1); Tenant3(1)
Second posting plan: House/Tenant3(1); Tenant1(1); Tenant2(1);

What are we trying to accomplish here...
1) any change of tenancy, into a restaurant or something?
2) reduce exisiting tenant's electric bill by the amount soon to be used by tenant3?
3) are any new shop windows being added, are there common areas (bathroom, hallway, parking) which will be affected; in other words, any new loads beyond the exisiting lighting & appliance circuits?
4) billing for this property: time of use, simple total watthour plan, or total + peak.
 
Re: Need a little help...

One of the new tenants will be a Chinese Take-Away restaurant, they will use the existing 200amp service.

The "House" service has about 20amp total load at this time. I am due to check further on this this morning.

The other tenant that is going to share electric with the "House" is a Check Cashing facility. There will be a bathroom added with a very small water heater. Gas or electric is unknown at this time. Heating and Air will be about a 3ton unit.

There is no plan for additional lighting for the Check Cashing tenant.
 
Re: Need a little help...

Originally posted by 1793:
As always things change. After looking into the property division a little closer I have come up with the following:

A- The larger of the two stores will use the
existing service.

B- The second store will only be 1,100 sqft. if
I use Article 220 Table 220.12 Stores 3va I
get 3,300va. So I figure a 100amp service is all that will be needed.

I thought I would come off of the "Common Area" panel with a 100 amp breaker to a sub-panel indoors at the new store. Property Owner and new tenant will share expenses.

Does anyone see a problem with this proposal?
Click to expand...
I see a problem that ultimately the property owner is responsible for the sub-metered tenant's electric bill. 90% of new business fail within the 1st year.

As an aside, the trend around here is not dividing smaller centers up into more, smaller stores, rather knocking down walls and increasing store sizes. So the issues here are somewhat the opposite... how to make 4 200a services one 800a service. And the wails from prospective business owners who don't understand why they cannot just let sleeping dogs lie, and have 4 meters and services for one store?
 
Re: Need a little help...

The site presently is two stores each with a 200amp service. One is 2,500 sqft and the other is about 3,000 sqft.

The 2,500 sqft store has been vacant for almost one year, lost revenue. The property owners have had a great deal of interest IF they had smaller spaces. This is why the 2,500 sqft is being divided. The smaller of the two new stores is the one on the "House".

I'm trying to save the property owners some money by proposing adding the smaller store to their meter instead of creating a new service for such a small space.

if this business arrangement should fail and the two stores need to combined again then the 200amp existing service, Chinese Restaurant, will be there for the new larger tenant.

I'm sure this explanation plays better in the "Theatre In My Mind" than in print.

[ February 18, 2006, 07:04 AM: Message edited by: 1793 ]
 
Re: Need a little help...

You're absolutely right. My local utility has no interest in little stores, which might not be there two years from now. Private submetering or including the electric in the rent makes a lot of sense. Are those old glass meters? I can't tell.

A restaurant around here will require a dedicated new hot water heater and separate gas meter. For the electric, you may find that someone in the food chain starts planning and construction without your knowing it. I've had this happen with restaurant owners, property managers, etc. One recent customer (225 sq ft dining, 450 sq ft kitchen/ bath/ storage) started out with a list of 11 dedicated circuits such as refrigerators, ice maker, freezers, blenders. Yes he bought each and every one, 17kW total, along with a 5 ton(!) HVAC unit and two - 600 watt chandeliers. He still wasn't satisfied, hired his own electrician to add in more, and a new larger panel. Just being clear, and keeping dated folders with successive actual loads, made me 'right about everything' at every step.

You can, hopefully, make a photos of: Air conditioner rating plates; current tenant's electric bills; and wire sizes inside that gutter. Chances are good that you're fine with what's there. The check cashing space will be show windows plus table 220.3(a) square feet plus the water heater. To cover your backside, just agree up front that 'they can't have track lighting packed into the front window.'
 
Re: Need a little help...

I agree that some track may be added but as far as show window it will very small. See Photo
The Check Cashing will be the left hand side with a dividing wall splitting the short wall you see in the photo.
 
Re: Need a little help...

My suggestion: use the 100-amp house panel for the new store space, and install a new smaller panel for the house loads.
 
Re: Need a little help...

We have decided to go ahead with a 100 amp service panel (sub-panel).

Would like to have calculation checked

--Using #2 CU THHN 4 CCC and 1 EGC #6 CU THHN.
--Using 1 1/4" EMT.
--100 Amp breaker in House Panel feeding the ML 100 amp panel in the building.

All replies are welcomed.

Thanks

[ February 21, 2006, 07:54 PM: Message edited by: 1793 ]
 
Re: Need a little help...

Not sure if any tenat can even share the house meter.Only way to figure the total service now needed is a new calc on total of 3 tenants plus the house.Things will and do change.Restraunts gobble power.All that can be done for now is rate it for the the total load .It could easily change in a year.By the way that looks like garbage workmanship so figure that in too.
 
Re: Need a little help...

Originally posted by iwire:
As the load is not really changing the service will probably be OK.

The only real way to know is load calculations or past load readings.
Click to expand...
Bob your slipping.We do not even know what the new load is yet.And old load means nothing.How can you say it probably be ok :roll:
 
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