Need Cat 6 labor unit advice

[ishium 80439]

I'm bidding a job in an elementary school that includes 3 Cat 6 drops in each of 10 rooms. All of the rooms are in the same hallway that has a dropped ceiling that is non plenum. The rooms that are the furthest away are approximately 220' from the data room. I will be installing bridle rings w/ nuts and washer on red iron trusses. Each of the runs will be fished down a non insulated wall and terminated on wall plates on LV rings (MPLS type).

Any advice on labor units to figure either the runs and/ or the terminations (the data room side will terminate with a RJ45)? I'm waiting on a material price but was wondering if anyone had any advice on the labor.

 

[TOOL_5150]

Any advice on labor units to figure either the runs and/ or the terminations (the data room side will terminate with a RJ45)?

What!?! Term them on a patch panel. I would double the termination time of a Cat5E to get your Cat6A [if you really are using Cat6A]. If you are using standard Cat6 It should only be a little loger on termination time.

~Matt

 

[ishium 80439]

This kind of a loose spec. We were told to bring them into the room, slap an RJ45 on them and leave it at that. The scanty documentation that we have for this mentions Cat 6 not 6A. And what is 6A? I've not heard of it. I've only worked w/ Cat 6 once as I find most people don't want to spend the extra dough for the additional headroom that they're not sure if they need.

 

[TOOL_5150]

This kind of a loose spec. We were told to bring them into the room, slap an RJ45 on them and leave it at that. The scanty documentation that we have for this mentions Cat 6 not 6A. And what is 6A? I've not heard of it. I've only worked w/ Cat 6 once as I find most people don't want to spend the extra dough for the additional headroom that they're not sure if they need.

Cat6A is Augmented, it is much thicker, and much more trouble to terminate. It has a full X seperator inside, rather than the strip that regular Cat6 has.

Cat6A is about the same size as a current day 12/3 romex. At least the brand I dealt with was.

~Matt

 

[Prene13]

Im not sure you are allowed to use bridal rings with Cat6 cable

 

[ishium 80439]

Cat6A is Augmented, it is much thicker, and much more trouble to terminate. It has a full X seperator inside, rather than the strip that regular Cat6 has.

Cat6A is about the same size as a current day 12/3 romex. At least the brand I dealt with was.

~Matt

That sounds like that needs to be in the "things you hate to install" thread. It sounds like a bear to work with.

 

[TOOL_5150]

That sounds like that needs to be in the "things you hate to install" thread. It sounds like a bear to work with.

I have some in the garage.. ill take a pic.

~Matt

 

[dbuckley]

The rooms that are the furthest away are approximately 220' from the data room.

Is that walking, as the crow flies, or as the wire goes?

The absolute limit on the length of a Cat5/6 cable from the switch port to the end user device is 100m, and thus the usual maximum length of a lateral run is 90m, which allows 10m for the combined length of patch cables at each end.

Apologies if I'm trying to teach my Grandma to suck eggs

 

[TOOL_5150]

That is a stranded #2 THHN wire to compare for size. In order from top to bottom: #2, Augmented Cat6, Cat6, Cat5E

Left to right:#2, Augmented Cat6, Cat6, Cat5E

Top to bottom: #2, Augmented Cat6, Cat6, Cat5E

You can see the Cat6A has the X seperator, where the Cat6 has just a flat seperator.

~Matt

 

[jsharvey]

Rj-45?

Rj-45?

I was just at a CEU seminar about CAT6/A unfortunately all my paperwork is at the office but, the end they had on the CAT6A cable they were passing around didn't look or feel like the standard RJ-45 end. It was alot heavier and looked like it was armoured and about 4 times the cost. The gentleman giving the talk was saying that you could triple your termination time from the CAT5E to the CAT6A if it was your first time doing it and double it if you've done a few. How are you going to certify your installation? The testers that are commonly on the market will test and certify CAT5E just fine but they won't do the CAT6A because of the data exchange rate that is required for a compliant CAT6A system. CAT6A is really over kill from what he was saying because about the only people using "complaint" systems rght now are the government because of the cost of the equipmwnt that can actually operate at the speed that a complaint system works. I don't remember him saying you couldn't use bridle rings as was mentioned in a previous post but I do remember him saying that you couldn't bundle it tightly because of a cross talk issue that doing so could cause. Hope this helps some, I'll try to find the paperwork tomorrow when I get to the office.

 

[TOOL_5150]

Cat6A comes to the point where running fiber is cheaper.

~Matt

 

[e57]

Not sure if any of you guys have ever used the Harris JackRapid - which is now made by Fluke???? But it has dies that fit specific jacks - If the jack you're using has a die for this tool - the tool will pay for itself after ~6-7 jacks - I'm not kidding.... (wait...) I'm not kidding!!!!!! I've used it on various 5E and 6 jacks using the right die and it flies.... (I don't own any 6A dies - cause not many have bitten on 6A...)

This coupled with a boom box of your favorite tunes, a piece of old credit card taped to your thumb as a faux thumb-nail*, a proper stripper, and a pair of electricians scissors.... Just a little fuel, (Coffee) and let 'er rip....

(*little trick I picked up - after the 20th jack you don't even know its there - after the 100th jack you'll be glad you did. Helps to seat pair in slots and save wear on you thumb.)

All that said - your labor unit should be someplace between your fastest and slowest guy(s).... If you don't do LV terminations all the time - or if terminating it is awkward for your crew - then bidding on book numbers is throwing money out the window. Compared to most guys I work with I'm fast terminating LV, compared to other people who do it all day long every day - I'm slow...

Pulling wire is pulling wire - you should be able to sort that out easy - but I will say the best thing you can do up front is plan - plan well, and plan for maximum effect - i.e. pull as much if not all at the same time. You have 30 runs - if you can pull all 30 at a time - do it. IMO depending on the situation, getting back to point A and resetting to start pulling the same path 3 times for ten cables can easily out weigh the cost of buying extra rolls or labor paying out cable to spare rolls so it can all be pulled at once. Any waste - just write it off to the next job or factor it into cost. As said - it depends on the situation. I like to pull the common pathway all at once then the loose ends back to point of use because it saves the set up time over and over on the same path. It doesn't work on short runs - but on long ones (like 200' plus) it does. Others may disagree with that method...





Matt - did you really ring and pencil that #2???? :roll:

 

[e57]

All of the rooms are in the same hallway that has a dropped ceiling that is non plenum. The rooms that are the furthest away are approximately 220' from the data room. I will be installing bridle rings w/ nuts and washer on red iron trusses.

I suggest skipping the bridal rings... Take a look at a Caddy catolog and find somthing that suits you - preassembeled - with a wide supporting base... 5E and higher has X-talk issues when bundled tight or when bent hard at tight angles - as they would in 1/4" bridal rings - and the more support the better... especially when dealing with large bundles...

 

[TOOL_5150]

Matt - did you really ring and pencil that #2???? :roll:

I did ring it, about 2 turns, half way through the insulation. I have no idea what pencil means though - second time I read it on a forum this week.

~Matt

 

[ishium 80439]

e57- I looked at the link that you provided for the Jack Rapid and I have to say I don't see what is so special about it, especially not something special enough to pay for itself after 6-7 jacks. What makes it so much more labor saving? It seems that you also need to buy a pile of dies depending on what jack you are using. Doesn't this get to be cumbersome and expensive to keep all of those dies on hand? I'm always interested in cool tools that will save me money in the long run but I think I need more convincing on this one.

Also what type of support would you recommend? If I'm running down a hall and need to branch off into individual rooms I can't think of anything short of conduit or some sort of cable tray type set up. Are J-hooks more accomodating to Cat 6?

5150- Get a razor knife and sharpen a pencil. Compare this to the stripping method used on that #2. Hence a noun becomes a verb.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[e57]

I did ring it, about 2 turns, half way through the insulation. I have no idea what pencil means though - second time I read it on a forum this week.

~Matt

There was an exceptionally long thread on the topic recently....

e57- I looked at the link that you provided for the Jack Rapid and I have to say I don't see what is so special about it, especially not something special enough to pay for itself after 6-7 jacks. What makes it so much more labor saving? It seems that you also need to buy a pile of dies depending on what jack you are using. Doesn't this get to be cumbersome and expensive to keep all of those dies on hand? I'm always interested in cool tools that will save me money in the long run but I think I need more convincing on this one.

Also what type of support would you recommend? If I'm running down a hall and need to branch off into individual rooms I can't think of anything short of conduit or some sort of cable tray type set up. Are J-hooks more accomodating to Cat 6?

5150- Get a razor knife and sharpen a pencil. Compare this to the stripping method used on that #2. Hence a noun becomes a verb.

Thanks for the advice.

The RapidJack seats and cuts all 4 pairs at the same time. Once you have all the pairs lined up for their respective slots, you put the whole jack into the die and squeeze - not individual punching of each conductor - it perfectly seats in the IDC and trims the excess in one pass. There is no impact and it is pretty ergonomic to use - less wear on the guy terminating... If compared to using say a 914 impact tool with a 110 blade - it is night and day in labor. The 5E and 6 jacks are harder to do by hand because they are smaller and tighter pair sets. With an impact IDC - you need get the pairs lined up, then to start punching them pull out the impact tool - align it properly, push and then increase that pressure to get to the impact release to cut the conductor off, then repeat that 7 more times. And this takes both hands and attention to detail of the angle you're pressing, the thoughts of 'man my hand hurts now...' etc. etc. By jack #5 you're looking for something else to impact on - like the floor or your boot... If you have a whole lot to do - like 100's of jacks all that time adds up. The ad for it claims it will knock off a full minute per jack - and that is something they can prove... Real world - if you put the same speed of guys one with an impact - the other with this tool he'll be finished in half the time... With fewer mistakes. It will start paying for itself quick. IMO 30 jacks will pay for it...

The dies... I mostly use leviton certain model#s - so I have one die that does most/all of them (41106, 41108, 5G108) - 6C phone ~ Cat5, another die does (61110, 5G110, 6110G) Cat5e, 6, and I didn't know this before - also a 6A jack too... So between those two dies I have the whole Leviton line covered.

Supports - I suggest getting j-hooks - the wide ones, and have them all set up to hang on the iron - i.e. get the ones with the beam clamp right on them, or set up for rod if you need to hang any lower. The wider they are the less pressure there is on the cable itself. And likewise the more there are of them.... Fewer problems, for a number of reasons. If you have a single type of mounting location throughout - it makes sense to get them pre-assembled. (If you can find them)


You could do 2" J hangers where the most cables are back to the server, and after you start dropping to <20 cables you could do 1" J-hangers.

 

[satcom]

There was an exceptionally long thread on the topic recently....

The RapidJack seats and cuts all 4 pairs at the same time. Once you have all the pairs lined up for their respective slots, you put the whole jack into the die and squeeze - not individual punching of each conductor - it perfectly seats in the IDC and trims the excess in one pass. There is no impact and it is pretty ergonomic to use - less wear on the guy terminating... If compared to using say a 914 impact tool with a 110 blade - it is night and day in labor. The 5E and 6 jacks are harder to do by hand because they are smaller and tighter pair sets. With an impact IDC - you need get the pairs lined up, then to start punching them pull out the impact tool - align it properly, push and then increase that pressure to get to the impact release to cut the conductor off, then repeat that 7 more times. And this takes both hands and attention to detail of the angle you're pressing, the thoughts of 'man my hand hurts now...' etc. etc. By jack #5 you're looking for something else to impact on - like the floor or your boot... If you have a whole lot to do - like 100's of jacks all that time adds up. The ad for it claims it will knock off a full minute per jack - and that is something they can prove... Real world - if you put the same speed of guys one with an impact - the other with this tool he'll be finished in half the time... With fewer mistakes. It will start paying for itself quick. IMO 30 jacks will pay for it...

The dies... I mostly use leviton certain model#s - so I have one die that does most/all of them (41106, 41108, 5G108) - 6C phone ~ Cat5, another die does (61110, 5G110, 6110G) Cat5e, 6, and I didn't know this before - also a 6A jack too... So between those two dies I have the whole Leviton line covered.

Supports - I suggest getting j-hooks - the wide ones, and have them all set up to hang on the iron - i.e. get the ones with the beam clamp right on them, or set up for rod if you need to hang any lower. The wider they are the less pressure there is on the cable itself. And likewise the more there are of them.... Fewer problems, for a number of reasons. If you have a single type of mounting location throughout - it makes sense to get them pre-assembled. (If you can find them)


You could do 2" J hangers where the most cables are back to the server, and after you start dropping to <20 cables you could do 1" J-hangers.

Yes, it is the best method, and since data work usually pays more then electrical work, the tool cost is nothing compared to labor and hands saved

 

[e57]

Yes, it is the best method, and since data work usually pays more then electrical work....

Depending on who you work for..... :roll: And economic climate - LV guys are cheap these days - and I'm at home on my butt doing neither.....