Neon Lights Wattage Consumption

[jselectricservs]

Hello,

We are removing some Neon fixtures and will be installing some led fixtures. can anyone help me with the neon wattage consumption. There are 30 fixtures with, 12,000volt 30ma (milliamp) transformers. Is this math correct? 12,000v x .03a = 360watts. There are 30 of them, so total energy consumption of 10,800 watts (10.8kW)? Is there different calculations for neon?

see photo attached for more information.

 

[hbiss]

Assuming that the neon draws the full 30ma from the transformer, I would think worse case. But also keep in mind that the efficiency of the transformer isn't 100%. A better more accurate way would be to measure the actual current draw from each transformer.

But why do you need to know the current draw of the old neon if you are going to replace it with LED? You should know the capacity of each circuit supplying the lighting and from that whether it can supply the new lighting.

-Hal

 

[jselectricservs]

I am looking for the wattage consumption to provide an energy saving analysis. Neon consumption versus the consumption of the new led fixtures.

Thank you.

 

[hbiss]

Easy enough to measure it.

-Hal

 

[jselectricservs]

Thank you.

 

[Flicker Index]

They call it a "transformer" but it's a really a high turn ratio sign ballast. It's very different from normal transformer like "potential transformer".
Unlike fluorescent ballasts, the load range is considerably more flexible and the power draw depends on the load length/diameter/fill gas and efficiency curve of the ballast at given load.

White colored lamps are basically cold cathode fluorescent lamps, so they have to run with enough power to remain usable when its cold outside so not needing to run at a certain power to remain warm is a major advantage of solid state pumped fluorescent lamps.

 

[jselectricservs]

appreciate the info.

Thanks

 

[ptonsparky]

Measure the current draw on the primary side of the transformers. Power factor may be listed on the label somewhere, then do the math.

 

[winnie]

Post #6 is important info. Basically the 'transformer' is specifically designed to adjust its output voltage to match the length of the tube being supplied, by maintaining a fixed output current. So the power consumption will go up or down depending on lots of factors. Think motor that changes power consumption depending upon mechanical load.

Neon can be quite energy efficient. This isn't an inefficient incandescent lamp covered with a colored filter that reduces light output further, but rather a physical process which directly emits the desired color, or a fluorescent process that efficiently converts a less desired color into the desired color.

Here is a (IMHO strongly biased by understating LED efficiency) sheet extoling the efficiency of Neon:

https://www.neon-lighting.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/LED-Vs-NEON-neonefficiency1.pdf

IMHO the above significantly understates the efficiency of LED systems to make their point, LED systems _should_ be far more efficient than what the Neon folk are claiming. But while high efficiency LEDs are available (see https://donklipstein.com/led.html ) that doesn't mean they actually get used in LED replacements for Neon.

For any energy comparison you do, be sure you are also noting the actual lumen output, so that people can do an apples to apples comparison. If the lumen output is not the same, you might include a comparison of the actual visual effect of the change; perhaps operating at 1/2 the lumen output is visually equivalent with significant energy savings.

-Jon

 

[Mr. Serious]

I like that LED efficiency page. Coming up I may have some more time to work on electronics projects, and I'll make use of some of those listed LEDs. I always wanted to build high-efficiency colored light strips, with several different colors that could be selected.

 

[jselectricservs]

Thank you all !

 

[LarryFine]

They call it a "transformer" but it's a really a high turn ratio sign ballast. It's very different from normal transformer like "potential transformer".

If you're referring to old neon transformers, they are indeed real potential transformers.

I have a couple rated at 15kv @ 30ma, center-tap-grounded. They make great Jacob's ladders.

 

[SceneryDriver]

I like that LED efficiency page. Coming up I may have some more time to work on electronics projects, and I'll make use of some of those listed LEDs. I always wanted to build high-efficiency colored light strips, with several different colors that could be selected.

We install approx. 26 miles (yes, miles) of this LED tape, each year:

5-in-1 5050 LED Strip Light with RGB + Tunable White - 60/m - 5m Reel

Create millions of colors with Red, Green, Blue and Tunable White all in one LED node.

www.environmentallights.com

With the correct decoder/driver, you can mix any color and intensity your heart desires.



SceneryDriver

 

[Flicker Index]

Measure the current draw on the primary side of the transformers. Power factor may be listed on the label somewhere, then do the math.

The power factor is not a constant. It depends on the load impedance and the input line voltage. The only thing that's constant is the Hz. You'll need a true power meter to measure the actual power.

 

[ptonsparky]

The power factor is not a constant. It depends on the load impedance and the input line voltage. The only thing that's constant is the Hz. You'll need a true power meter to measure the actual power.

How close does he need to be?
Is +- 1kw a fail?

 

[Flicker Index]

If you're referring to old neon transformers, they are indeed real potential transformers.

I have a couple rated at 15kv @ 30ma, center-tap-grounded. They make great Jacob's ladders.

Limited current around 30mA has a different meaning than a normal transformer rating.
If you do a Jacob's ladder with a transformer that is not limited, you will overload it and pop a fuse or burn it out.

Post #6 is important info. Basically the 'transformer' is specifically designed to adjust its output voltage to match the length of the tube being supplied, by maintaining a fixed output current. So the power consumption will go up or down depending on lots of factors. Think motor that changes power consumption depending upon mechanical load.

Neon can be quite energy efficient. This isn't an inefficient incandescent lamp covered with a colored filter that reduces light output further, but rather a physical process which directly emits the desired color, or a fluorescent process that efficiently converts a less desired color into the desired color.

Here is a (IMHO strongly biased by understating LED efficiency) sheet extoling the efficiency of Neon:

https://www.neon-lighting.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/LED-Vs-NEON-neonefficiency1.pdf

IMHO the above significantly understates the efficiency of LED systems to make their point, LED systems _should_ be far more efficient than what the Neon folk are claiming. But while high efficiency LEDs are available (see https://donklipstein.com/led.html ) that doesn't mean they actually get used in LED replacements for Neon.

For any energy comparison you do, be sure you are also noting the actual lumen output, so that people can do an apples to apples comparison. If the lumen output is not the same, you might include a comparison of the actual visual effect of the change; perhaps operating at 1/2 the lumen output is visually equivalent with significant energy savings.

-Jon

The article is from 17 years ago though. Spring 2006. Between then and now, electronic ballasts have gone up a few percentage points in efficiency but LED elements have made a heap of a difference. I would say the article is too old to be of any use on anything related to efficiency values for LEDs.

As with neons lamp string and ballast are paired together by the current rating. An LED ballast is chosen so the string voltage at the rated current comfortably fits inside the ballast output voltage window. For example, the 0.35A given as an example below is 120v-425v output at the rated current. If the LED string voltage is about 300v with 0.35A going through, this ballast works.

http://www1.futureelectronics.com/doc/philips%20lighting/ledinta0350c425do.pdf

How close does he need to be?
Is +- 1kw a fail?

+/- 10% would be the limit I am comfortable with for savings estimation. 1kW is a meaningless value without knowing the size of the installation.