Neutral and Hot reversed on incoming 100 amd service (house)

[JustinMiller]

The local utility company and local electrical inspector passed this inspection. The neutral wire was phased incorrectly on the inside of service. This made one hot a neutral.. What could this do..there was a fire at the residence..Would the inspections cover the contractor????

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Most if not all inspection entities have insurance called, Errors and Omissions. This protects the inspector, as long as he actually was on site during his/her inspection.

If the contractor is at fault, he will bear the brunt of this incident.

 

[charlie b]

Re: Neutral and Hot reversed on incoming 100 amd service (ho

Re: Neutral and Hot reversed on incoming 100 amd service (ho

What could this do..there was a fire at the residence.

We have to tread lightly here. If indeed there had been a fire, and if it is suspected that the electrical installation might have had an influence in getting the fire started, then the members of this Forum are not permitted to provide any information or advice that might be used in a legal proceeding. We are not "expert witnesses," and we do not give "expert advice." Nobody has permission from the owner of this Forum to use the information posted herein as supporting evidence in a court of law.

That said, I will concede that switching a hot and a neutral from the incoming utility to a main service panel is bad. But could it start a fire? It is possible? The first time you turn on a single phase load, you will get 240 volts, and not 120 volts, going through the load. That could push enough current through the load to cause it to overheat, but depending on the load it may or may not trip a breaker. If the load is a light bulb, the light would probably explode. But that would just cause a mess ? glass all over the floor ? and that would be the end of that event. If the load is a heater, the effect might be worse. If a large number of loads get energized at the same time, such as when you first turn on the service, who knows what might happen. If you want to know, you need to hire a forensic engineer or an electrical contractor with experience as an expert witness.

 

[tshea]

This the 3rd time I have heard of this.

The first time I heard it froma another contractor. The POCO connected the line side of the meter incorrectly. It wsa an underground fed meter. Blew a couple a light bulbs but that was it.

The second time actually happened to me. Same thing, same POCO. Blew a few light bulbs but that was it. House was empty!

Now with yours, that makes 3! I agree with Charlie--

If the load is a light bulb, the light would probably explode. But that would just cause a mess ? glass all over the floor ? and that would be the end of that event.

Was this house occupied? DId the EC connect the line side of the meter? Where was the crossed over wiring?

 

[JustinMiller]

Re: Neutral and Hot reversed on incoming 100 amd service (ho

Re: Neutral and Hot reversed on incoming 100 amd service (ho

What could this do..there was a fire at the residence.

Every singl light in the house was turned on as well as the airconditioner.
everything seemed to be fine. I am expecting foul play.......







We have to tread lightly here. If indeed there had been a fire, and if it is suspected that the electrical installation might have had an influence in getting the fire started, then the members of this Forum are not permitted to provide any information or advice that might be used in a legal proceeding. We are not "expert witnesses," and we do not give "expert advice." Nobody has permission from the owner of this Forum to use the information posted herein as supporting evidence in a court of law.

That said, I will concede that switching a hot and a neutral from the incoming utility to a main service panel is bad. But could it start a fire? It is possible? The first time you turn on a single phase load, you will get 240 volts, and not 120 volts, going through the load. That could push enough current through the load to cause it to overheat, but depending on the load it may or may not trip a breaker. If the load is a light bulb, the light would probably explode. But that would just cause a mess ? glass all over the floor ? and that would be the end of that event. If the load is a heater, the effect might be worse. If a large number of loads get energized at the same time, such as when you first turn on the service, who knows what might happen. If you want to know, you need to hire a forensic engineer or an electrical contractor with experience as an expert witness.

 

[charlie b]

Before I let this thread go any further, there are three things I would like to know:

• 1. Are you the home owner?
• 2. If not, what is your role in this investigation?
• 3. What are you hoping to learn from the other members of this Forum, and what are you planning to do with that information?

Please understand that I am just trying to faithfully fulfil my role as Chief Moderator, and that role requires me to protect the interests of the Forum Owner and the other members.

 

[petersonra]

Re: Neutral and Hot reversed on incoming 100 amd service (ho

Re: Neutral and Hot reversed on incoming 100 amd service (ho

The local utility company and local electrical inspector passed this inspection. The neutral wire was phased incorrectly on the inside of service. This made one hot a neutral.. What could this do..there was a fire at the residence..Would the inspections cover the contractor????

This seems to me to be a question of liability that no one here could possibly answer.

Generally, if an inspector is employed by a government agency, your chances of getting anything out of the government agency for anything they may have missed is close to nil.

The best answer to this problem is probably to just let your property insurer handle the repairs and let them figure out who is liable. That is why you have property insurance.

 

[charlie b]

If I correctly understand what I was told in an exchange of private messages, justinmiller is an electrical contractor in the employ of the company involved in construction of this project. He is looking for assistance in determining whether a wiring error might be a possible explanation for the fire. At this point, it does not appear to me that a legal action is pending or is even contemplated. The question here is how to fit facts to consequences. Therefore, for the moment at least, I will allow this discussion to continue.

Here are a few facts that justinmiller gave me by PM:

• The soon to be home owner was inside looking around. She heard a pop and they turned the main breaker off. The meter was still spinning rapidly. So they called 911.
• The EC did connect the Line and Load side. After this was done they turned on every single light fixture in the house. As well as the AC unit. No explosions
• The wiring was missed phased from the load side to the panel.

For my part, I am confused by the timing of events. I would like to see a list of events in the order of their occurrence. The following is a FICTIONAL list, as an example of what I would want to know:

• The seller (or buyer) hired an electrical contractor to do some work prior to closing the sale of the house.
• The work done was . . . . (please describe, such as "replace main panel,").
• During this work, a wiring error was made, although the error was not discovered until later. Or did I read this wrong, and is it possible that the wiring error was not done by the original EC, but happened later?
• The POCO and the electrical inspector did their inspections, found no problems, and allowed the meter to be connected and turned on.

I infer that the above things happened in that order. Here is where I get confused with the timing. In which order did the following things occur?

• All lights and A/C unit ran with no problems for 45 minutes.
• "Popping" sound was heard, the main breaker was turned off, the meter was seen to still be spinning, and 911 was called. I surmise that these four things happened in this order and within minutes of each other.
• Fire was discovered.
• The wiring error was discovered.

 

[tshea]

All lights and A/C unit ran with no problems for 45 minutes.

"Popping" sound was heard, the main breaker was turned off, the meter was seen to still be spinning, and 911 was called. I surmise that these four things happened in this order and within minutes of each other.

Fire was discovered.

The wiring error was discovered.

Since we are being armchair investigators, my guess is the main breaker was/is defective and did not in actuality "turn off."

Now as for the load side of the meter to the panel wiring being mis-phased, somebody made a big OOPS! (Doesn't make sense if everything was fine 45 minutes prior.)

 

[hockeyoligist2]

Been there!

Been there!

It has been about twenty years ago, I installed a service for a mobile home, the HO had everything turned on in the house. When he threw the main he lost TV, Microwave, and a lot more. POCO said it was his fault for not checking their connection. Never paid a dime.

 

[George Stolz]

• Old work or new work?
• What was the wiring method between the service and the panel, where the error occured?

As a person who carries a cloud with me, to hang over my head, I have special insight into horrible blunders. I'd bet 50? on this story:

The main breaker tripped (the pop). Handy Hank (Soon-To-Be-) Homeowner walked out to the service, and said, "Here's the problem!" and helpfully reset the main, which then was damaged from the abuse of the fault coursing through it.

Since he was standing there, staring at the meter, he saw it spinning like a top and decided "Whoops, I bet that was off for a reason."

When he tried to shut it off, it was to no avail, because the mechanism inside the breaker had already welded closed.

Now, the wife is screaming at the top of her lungs that he broke the service, and angrily grabs for her cell phone and rushes inside, dialing 911.

The realtor, in the mean time, is patiently standing in the basement, awaiting the next leg of the tour, when she smells smoke, and rushes upstairs to evacuate the house.

I hope the original poster comes forward with as much detailed information as he can, so that we can dig (with seriousness) to the core of what might have happened.

 

[james wuebker]

Re: Neutral and Hot reversed on incoming 100 amd service (ho

Re: Neutral and Hot reversed on incoming 100 amd service (ho

What could this do..there was a fire at the residence.

We have to tread lightly here. If indeed there had been a fire, and if it is suspected that the electrical installation might have had an influence in getting the fire started, then the members of this Forum are not permitted to provide any information or advice that might be used in a legal proceeding. We are not "expert witnesses," and we do not give "expert advice." Nobody has permission from the owner of this Forum to use the information posted herein as supporting evidence in a court of law.

That said, I will concede that switching a hot and a neutral from the incoming utility to a main service panel is bad. But could it start a fire? It is possible? The first time you turn on a single phase load, you will get 240 volts, and not 120 volts, going through the load. That could push enough current through the load to cause it to overheat, but depending on the load it may or may not trip a breaker. If the load is a light bulb, the light would probably explode. But that would just cause a mess ? glass all over the floor ? and that would be the end of that event. If the load is a heater, the effect might be worse. If a large number of loads get energized at the same time, such as when you first turn on the service, who knows what might happen. If you want to know, you need to hire a forensic engineer or an electrical contractor with experience as an expert witness.

I agree with Charlie. Maybe we should firgure out someway to verify that when hookup is made everything is correct before that meter is plugged in. What I'm trying to say is (prevention).

Jim

 

[mario]

I (as Charlie) would like to hear of "the sequence of events" ... it doesn't seem possible that for 45 minutes (I think was stated) everything was ok if the wiring was reversed as stated ...

 

[tonyi]

Re: Neutral and Hot reversed on incoming 100 amd service (ho

Re: Neutral and Hot reversed on incoming 100 amd service (ho

Maybe we should firgure out someway to verify that when hookup is made everything is correct before that meter is plugged in. What I'm trying to say is (prevention).
Jim

Develop a ritual. Never deviate from it.

If its the end of a day, I always complete the immediate task even if I have to stay a few minutes longer. Too easy to forget that some set screw/locknut/lug needs to be tightened tomorrow morning.

Don't "rush".

 

[dlhoule]

All lights and A/C unit ran with no problems for 45 minutes.

"Popping" sound was heard, the main breaker was turned off, the meter was seen to still be spinning, and 911 was called. I surmise that these four things happened in this order and within minutes of each other.

Fire was discovered.

The wiring error was discovered.

There is no way it happened in that order. I am assuming a 220 V A/C. If hot and neutral were crossed, you wouldn't get A/C to run for 2 min; let alone 45. As far as lights unless they were all on same line some would have had 240V on them. I do not know of any 120V lights that will function for anywhere near 45 min with 240V on them. My question is was the popping sound breakers tripping, including the main and then main got turned back on. If that happened of course the meter would continue to spin. :?

 

[cowboyjwc]

I would like to know:

How the A/C was running if it was only getting 110v.

How the lights did not explode as soon as they were turned on if they were getting 220v.

Why the main didn't trip as soon as it was turned on since one of the hot legs was grounded.

How they didn't blow the fuses on the utility transformer since one of the hot legs was grounded.

 

[mthead]

cowboy inspector's last point questioning why no report of utility trans former failure is not also in this sequence of events-that exact result was in similar situation I was recently privy to investigating.utility was very upset not only with contractor who in this instance crossed legs in mtr pan but also w/their own person who ok'd the hookup[he was a new guy-boy was he surprised!].

 

[winnie]

With a hot and neutral swapped, one leg of the service would see 120V, the other leg would see 240V, and any double pole loads would only see 120V.

Any lights on the '120V' leg would run normally.

240V loads _might_ run, or simply appear to run without performing well. Motors driving fans would turn.

The hot leg connected to the grounding electrode system would not be a significant short circuit. Current would flow to the grounding electrodes based upon their resistance back to the transformer grounding electrode. If the grounding electrode impedance were 25 ohms, you would only have 4-5A flowing; no breakers or fuses would trip.

-Jon