I have an existing 480V, 3ph, 3W panel and I am needing to add a neutral. Also, there isn’t enough room in the panel to add the neutral bar. Is it against code to have an enclosure set beside the 480V panel just for the incoming and outgoing neutrals? If so, any other ideas on what I can do without replacing the entire panel?
Neutral Bar Outside of a Panel
- Thread starter ccampbell
- Start date
- Status
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
The code requires any neutral wires be run with the circuit conductors so they have to start in the same enclosure IMO.
if it is only a the wire panel, where is the neutral coming from?
Might be easier and maybe even cheaper to just set a new 4 wire panelboard next to the existing 3 wire PB.
The neutral wire, and the new 3 phase feed to the existing panel, will be coming from a 480V, 2000A, 3PH, 4W, switchboard.
All of the neutral wires will be ran in the same conduits as their power wires going to the HVAC devices. They will all come into the 200A panel and the neutrals when pass through a 3-4" hole with conduit to an enclosure next to the panel.
To swap out the guts of this Eaton panel to accommodate the neutrals will cost $10,000. We are looking at doing this in two locations, and that cost is much too high.
I think I'd have someone else take a look at the situation. IMO, it would be highly unusual for a 200 panel cabinet not to have room to add a neutral bar and I would certainly think you could get a better price than 10K.
Joethemechanic
Senior Member
- Location
- Hazleton Pa
- Occupation
- Electro-Mechanical Technician. Industrial machinery
Control currents are usually pretty low in relation to the load. Can't you ad a small transformer near the load to provide a neutral?
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
If instead of another enclosure you were to add a gutter to the panelboard and put the neutral bar in the gutter, I think that would meet code because by definition it would appear a gutter is an extension of the enclosure and not a different enclosure. Just a thought though. Might want to run it by the AHJ. Maybe send them an email and ask them.
rambojoe
Senior Member
- Location
- phoenix az
- Occupation
- Wireman
Is the 277v for a ems/control by the panel, or for controls inside the hvac unit?
$10,000 to put in new guts?! Holy goodness... for a isolated lug and term bar? I understand how some panels don't have room on the sides- but the retro kit may just have the n buss on top or bottom. There has to be room somewhere.
$10,000 to put in new guts?! Holy goodness... for a isolated lug and term bar? I understand how some panels don't have room on the sides- but the retro kit may just have the n buss on top or bottom. There has to be room somewhere.
Last edited:
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
408.41 Grounded Conductor Terminations.
Each grounded conductor shall terminate within the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for another conductor.
Each grounded conductor shall terminate within the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for another conductor.
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
If the gutter just makes the PB enclosure bigger, how is this provision violated?
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Auxiliary gutters are really very rare. They must have a large open to the panel that they are connected so so that they actually provide more wiring space for the panel. If if is connected to the panel via nipples it is a wireway and not an auxiliary gutter as it has not expanded or supplemented the space in the panel.
I would think most of the 10k would be towards the labor, pipe, wire and panel of replacing the existing 3w feeder to that location with a new 4 wire feeder.
If it's any distance at all, I'd be thinking about turning the existing 3w feeder into a fused disconnect that would feed a 480v Delta to 480v Y Xfmr to a new 4 wire panel.
JAP>
Tulsa Electrician
Senior Member
- Location
- Tulsa
- Occupation
- Electrician
By chance is this a column width panel ?
If not your out of luck. Really surprised to see a panel that has no provision for a netural bar. I have seen some that had them removed since the netural was not used.
Is there any panel information via sticker etc. You may be able to buy a netural kit for the panel.
Got a pic?
If not your out of luck. Really surprised to see a panel that has no provision for a netural bar. I have seen some that had them removed since the netural was not used.
Is there any panel information via sticker etc. You may be able to buy a netural kit for the panel.
Got a pic?
- Status