neutral current

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sparky 134

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Joliet, IL
i, until recently, believed that if two branch circuits had the same current on them, the current on a shared neutral would be zero, regardless if the system was 120/208 or 120/240. i recently read that on a 120/208 system, the above neutral would have the same current on it as the branch circuits do. why is this ? i asked an instructor about it and he disagreed saying the current on the neutral would be zero. can anyone shed some light ??

thanks,
bill
 
Re: neutral current

i recently read that on a 120/208 system, the above neutral would have the same current on it as the branch circuits do. why is this ?
It could have (approximatly), if the loads were mostly non-linear, that is, if they consisted of switch-mode (electronic) power supplies.

The loads would have to be linear, and perfectly balanced, in order for the neutral conductor current to be zero.

Ed
 
Re: neutral current

Sparky:

Neutral current on a 3 phase 4 wire wye is

N= the sqrt of (Asq+Bsq+Csq)-(AxB+BxC+CxA)

or if you have 5 amps on A phase and 5 amps on B and 0 amps on C phase phase, then the neutral current would be 5 amps


sqrt of[(5sq+5sq+0)-(5x5+5x0+0x5)]=50-25=sqrt of 25=5= neutral current.
 
Re: neutral current

Ed I think Sparky 134 is asking about using only two of the three phases of a three phase system.

310.14(b)(4)(b) In a 3-wire circuit consisting of two phase wires and the neutral of a 4-wire, 3-phase, wye-connected system, a common conductor carries approximately the same current as the line-to-neutral load currents of the other conductors and shall be counted when applying the provisions of 310.15(4)(B)(2)(a)
Bob
 
Re: neutral current

Originally posted by sparky 134:Why is this? Can anyone shed some light ??
It is because not all currents are the same, so that you can?t always add the number ?1? to the number ?-1? and get a result of zero. If a bowl on the table contains three apples and five oranges, and if I put in another apple, and if you take out one orange, has the contents of the bowl changed? You might say that it had held eight fruits, and still does hold eight fruits, so the net change is zero. Or you might notice the change in how many of which types of fruits are now in the bowl, and say that the net change is not zero.

On a 120/240V system, the currents leaving each bus are 180 degrees out of phase with each other. Suppose you have only two loads on the panel, one from each side, each drawing the same current. What happens is the current leaves the panel via a breaker on (let us say) the left side. It travels down the ?hot wire? (i.e., ?phase? or ?ungrounded conductor?) to the load, through the load, and out the ?cold wire? (i.e., ?neutral,? or ?grounded conductor?) to the point at which the shared neutral was split to serve the two loads. From here, it travels up the neutral to the other load, through the other load, and along the ?hot wire? back to the panel, and into the breaker on (let us say) the right side. The shared neutral, from the panel to the point at which that shared neutral is split, sees no current.

On a 120/208V system, the currents leaving each bus are 120 degrees out of phase with each other. The current paths discussed above still apply, but the addition is now that of apples plus oranges, not fruits plus fruits. So a different thing takes place (or more properly, the same thing takes place, but with a different result) at the point at which the shared neutral splits. It is because of Kirchhoff?s Current Law: ?The sum of all currents entering a point must be zero.? (Note: To be consistent in the use of this law, you must speak of all currents as entering the point, not as one entering and another leaving.)

In the 120/240 case, the current entering the split point (from the left side breaker) comes in as (let us say) 5 amps at an angle of 0 degrees. The current entering the split point (from the right side breaker) comes in as (let us say) 5 amps at an angle of 180 degrees. The current entering the split point from the shared neutral must be whatever is left, when these two are added together. But add 5 amps (angle 0) to 5 amps (angle 180) and you get zero, so the shared neutral gets zero current.

In the 120/208 case, the current entering the split point (from the left side breaker) comes in as (let us say) 5 amps at an angle of 0 degrees. The current entering the split point (from the right side breaker) comes in as (let us say) 5 amps at an angle of 120 degrees. The current entering the split point from the shared neutral must be whatever is left, when these two are added together. If you add 5 amps (angle 0) to 5 amps (angle 120) and you get 5 amps (angle 240). So the shared neutral gets a current of 5 amps (angle 240). This is the same result as you get from the formula that brian john used.
 
Re: neutral current

What happens when a 100 watt lamp is on each phase to neutral, and the neutral is disconnected?
 
Re: neutral current

120/240 - Nothing.
120/208 - Both lights get dimmer.
Both answers are contingent on nothing else changing.
 
Re: neutral current

Sparky, the neutral for 2 phases of a 3-phase system (208 between phases) always carries current. There is no situation in which it will not (as long as there is some load).

The practical way to see this is to clamp your ammeter around two phases (208) which each have the same current. You will see the resultant. This will be the amount of current the neutral is carrying.

I once was called into an office building with high magnetic fields all over the place. Each office had a subpanel fed by two phases (120/208). The magnetic fields were caused by various neutral/ground connections, as well as incorrect neutral/neutral connections. Nothing new to me, but the fact that they were using 2-phase meant that there was much more neutral coursing around than if it had been 120/240. So any neutral/ground errors involve much more neutral than usual.

Karl
 
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