Neutral/Ground Bar

[Alwayslearningelec]

Residential panel. How do you know which is the ground bar and which id the neutral bar. They both have a black cable attached to them( ignore the large black cable, that's for a future load) leaving the bottom of the panel. I assume one of those black cables goes to a ground rod.

Can you really have grounds and neutral attached to the same terminal/bar as you see? Thanks.

 

[865resi]

What is the future load?

 

[tom baker]

In a service panel neutrals and grounds can be on the same bar.
But see a white and bare under the same screw. It’s ok to have two EGCs it’s one neutral per screw

 

[Alwayslearningelec]

In a service panel neutrals and grounds can be on the same bar.
But see a white and bare under the same screw. It’s ok to have two EGCs it’s one neutral per screw

yes they are under same screw. they can’t be?

 

[Little Bill]

yes they are under same screw. they can’t be?

The neutral always requires one hole for each neutral. The EGC (grounding) can be two per hole if the bar is listed for two. Now I don't know the justification for only one neutral but that is the code rule.
With that being said, a lot of electricians used to place a neutral and EGC in the same hole. It makes it easy to trace the circuit conductors and a more neat panel make-up. I don't think it was ever legal but some inspectors use to allow it, or maybe there were no inspections in some areas.

 

[robertd]

>How do you know which is the ground bar and which id the neutral bar.
The bar on the right, which is bolted directly to the box, is the ground bar.

> Now I don't know the justification for only one neutral but that is the code rule.
A guess, they don't want the neutral disconnected on a MWBC if someone is working on some other circuit.

 

[goldstar]

As others have said, neutrals and grounds can be on the same bar but not together under one screw. That said, this looks like a "main breaker" panel. The only reason I could think of where a separate ground bar would or should be added (for ground wires only) is if you had an automatic transfer switch for a back-up generator added. In that case the neutral would have to float and the equipment ground wires landed on the added ground bar which would be bonded to the enclosure. You would also have to remove the the green grounding screw that bonds the neutral bar(s) to the cabinet.

 

[Fred B]

Residential panel. How do you know which is the ground bar and which id the neutral bar. They both have a black cable attached to them( ignore the large black cable, that's for a future load) leaving the bottom of the panel. I assume one of those black cables goes to a ground rod.

Can you really have grounds and neutral attached to the same terminal/bar as you see? Thanks.

Your quandary is exactly the reason for 200.6 requirements for identifying of the grounded (neutral) conductors and a similar requirements in 250.119 for the grounding conductor. This is in violation of both. I would not assume either to be going to the ground rod, from what is visible in the picture this is a PON panel and the addition of a ground bus and lack of the green bonding screw, it would appear the panel is used as a subpanel. And if a subpanel the ground terminations on the neutral bus would be a violation not to mention the already referenced ground/neutral under the same terminal screw.

 

[infinity]

Residential panel. How do you know which is the ground bar and which id the neutral bar. They both have a black cable attached to them( ignore the large black cable, that's for a future load) leaving the bottom of the panel. I assume one of those black cables goes to a ground rod.

Can you really have grounds and neutral attached to the same terminal/bar as you see? Thanks.

Can you post a photo of the entire panel? Those black conductors could be GEC's but there isn't enough information shown in the photo to determine that.

 

[ggunn]

As others have said, neutrals and grounds can be on the same bar but not together under one screw. That said, this looks like a "main breaker" panel. The only reason I could think of where a separate ground bar would or should be added (for ground wires only) is if you had an automatic transfer switch for a back-up generator added. In that case the neutral would have to float and the equipment ground wires landed on the added ground bar which would be bonded to the enclosure. You would also have to remove the the green grounding screw that bonds the neutral bar(s) to the cabinet.

We encounter this sort of thing frequently when we add PV and PowerWall to a home. When the main breaker in the MDP is no longer the first OCPD from the service, G and N need to be separated. If it is a large panel and G and N are mixed on the two bars, the bars need to be unbonded and the G and N conductors need to be segregated. It's a PITA for our guys in the field.

 

[tom baker]

The neutral always requires one hole for each neutral. The EGC (grounding) can be two per hole if the bar is listed for two. Now I don't know the justification for only one neutral but that is the code rule.
With that being said, a lot of electricians used to place a neutral and EGC in the same hole. It makes it easy to trace the circuit conductors and a more neat panel make-up. I don't think it was ever legal but some inspectors use to allow it, or maybe there were no inspections in some areas.

To prevent disconnecting the neutral on a MWBC. You turn off one ckt, go to remove that neutral, which is in the hole as the neutral from a MWBC. When that neutral is loose, those loads in parallel are now in series @ 240v. The smoke just got let out.

 

[Alwayslearningelec]

Here's the entire panel. Some things still in the works so some code violations.

 

[infinity]

Here's the entire panel. Some things still in the works so some code violations.

Is this a service? As others have stated I don't see the green bonding screw.

 

[Alwayslearningelec]

Is this a service? As others have stated I don't see the green bonding screw.

The is service panel for a home and the only panel.

 

[Little Bill]

> Now I don't know the justification for only one neutral but that is the code rule.
A guess, they don't want the neutral disconnected on a MWBC if someone is working on some other circuit.

To prevent disconnecting the neutral on a MWBC. You turn off one ckt, go to remove that neutral, which is in the hole as the neutral from a MWBC. When that neutral is loose, those loads in parallel are now in series @ 240v. The smoke just got let out.

I understand why two neutrals can't be in the same hole. What I don't understand (and should have distinguished between the two) is why an EGC and neutral can't be in the same hole if the bar is listed for it.

 

[Tulsa Electrician]

When the netutal bar has an MBJ we were allowed to go one white (grounded) per hole with two egc in the next than one grounded. And than repeat as long as the EGC was the same guage and type.
Some Eaton can take up to three within a given range on a ground bar. It states this in the installation instructions.

The MBJ does appear to be missing in the pic. If indeed it is the service main disconnect location.

No how to fix? A bonding jumper of some type? Wonder what going on ahead of the panel.

 

[James L]

The neutral always requires one hole for each neutral. The EGC (grounding) can be two per hole if the bar is listed for two.

The label inside the panel cover tells how many EGCs can be under one screw. Some are rated for 3

With that being said, a lot of electricians used to place a neutral and EGC in the same hole. It makes it easy to trace the circuit conductors and a more neat panel make-up. I don't think it was ever legal but some inspectors use to allow it, or maybe there were no inspections in some areas.

Some guys around here still do it and it passesfor them somehow

 

[Fred B]

When the netutal bar has an MBJ we were allowed to go one white (grounded) per hole with two egc in the next than one grounded. And than repeat as long as the EGC was the same guage and type.
Some Eaton can take up to three within a given range on a ground bar. It states this in the installation instructions.

The MBJ does appear to be missing in the pic. If indeed it is the service main disconnect location.

No how to fix? A bonding jumper of some type? Wonder what going on ahead of the panel.

This panel looks to be a SD HOM PON. Should be able to get a bonding screw to replace the missing one.

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