neutral load

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tschepers

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I found a neutral w/ 15 amps on it this is shared w/ to ckts. one has not much load maybe a half amp, the other load is the lighting and it draws the same amount that the neutral is drawing. does this make since?
 
Yes, the neutral will carry the unbalanced load between the ungrounded conductors.

So for example, if I have a lighting load on one hot leg of 16 amps and another load of .5 amps on the other hot leg the neutral will have a load of 15.5 amps.

Chris
 
Assuming single phase power.

Almost makes sense if this is a Multi Wire circuit that shares a neutral.
Power (hot) legs on opposite phases.
The neutral current be the result of the difference between the two loads.
Example: 10 amps on one power leg, 3 amps on the other power leg.
Neutral current will be 7 amps.

If both the power (hot) legs are on the same phase, and share the same
neutral, the neutral currents will add.
Example: 10 amps on one power leg, 3 amps on the other power leg.
Neutral current will be 13 amps.

Your amp-meter accuracy may explain the "half amp" that got lost.

Make sure that the two "hot" conductors are on opposite phases, or you could overload the neutral.

steve
 
That's why I said on another thread that it's better to size the neutral the same as the phase conductors. Even if it's a wye or a three wire single phase it should be sized that way.
 
That's why I said on another thread that it's better to size the neutral the same as the phase conductors. Even if it's a wye or a three wire single phase it should be sized that way.

I don't think anyone in this Forum would downsize the neutral in a MWBC.
 
As with all neutral calculations on MWBC's you need to know the type of system that the circuits are connected to. On a 120/240 volt system the neutral current would be the difference between the two circuits. On a 208Y/120 volt system the neutral current can be nearly the same as the phase current. For example:

120/240 system A=10 amps B= 10 amps N = 0
208Y/120 system A=10 amps B= 10 amps N=10 amps.
 
Picture a three wire circuit. One hot lead has no load(open circuit) and the other has full load. You're going to have a lot of current flowing though that neutral. Better to size it the same as the ungrounded conductors.

As for a wye, picture one of the phases having no load(open circuit) and the other phases being used at full load. The neutral current would be about the same as the phase conductors assuming that they are equal.
 
Picture a three wire circuit. One hot lead has no load(open circuit) and the other has full load. You're going to have a lot of current flowing though that neutral. Better to size it the same as the ungrounded conductors.

As for a wye, picture one of the phases having no load(open circuit) and the other phases being used at full load. The neutral current would be about the same as the phase conductors assuming that they are equal.
MWBC neutral downsizing? Even on feeders it has been increasingly dis-allowed over the last several code cycles....

In fact the trend is to recommend over-sizing of wye and delta circuits and/or with certain loads.

During the 1996 NEC cycle, a task group composed of interested parties was created to recommend to the National Electrical Code Committee the direction its standards should take to improve the safeguarding of persons and property from conditions that can be introduced by nonlinear loads. This group was designated the NEC Correlating Committee Ad Hoc Subcommittee on Nonlinear Loads. The scope of this subcommittee was as follows:
(1) To study the effects of electrical loads producing substantial current distortion upon electrical system distribution components including, but not limited to
a. Distribution transformers, current transformers, and others
b. Switchboards and panelboards
c. Phase and neutral feeder conductors
d. Phase and neutral branch-circuit conductors
e. Proximate data and communications conductors
(2) To study harmful effects, if any, to the system components from overheating resulting from these load characteristics
(3) To make recommendations for methods to minimize the harmful effects of nonlinear loads considering all means, including compensating methods at load sources
(4) To prepare proposals, if necessary, to amend the 1996 National Electrical Code, where amelioration to fire safety may be achieved
The subcommittee reviewed technical literature and electrical theory on the fundamental nature of harmonic distortion, as well as the requirements in and proposals for the 1993 NEC regarding nonlinear loads. The subcommittee concluded that, while nonlinear loads can cause undesirable operational effects, including additional heating, no significant threat to persons and property has been adequately substantiated.
The subcommittee agreed with the existing Code text regarding nonlinear loads. However, the subcommittee submitted many proposals for the 1996 NEC, including a definition of nonlinear load, revised text reflecting that definition, fine print notes calling attention to the effects of nonlinear loads, and proposals permitting the paralleling of neutral conductors in existing installations under engineering supervision.
As part of the subcommittee's final report, nine proposals for changes to the 1993 NEC were submitted. All were accepted without modification as changes to the 1996 NEC. Also included in this report and now pertinent to the 2002 NEC 310.15(B)(4)(c) is the following discussion.
SHOULD NEUTRAL CONDUCTORS BE OVERSIZED?
There is concern that, because the theoretical maximum neutral current is 1.73 times the balanced phase conductor current, a potential exists for neutral conductor overheating in 3-phase, 4-wire, wye-connected power systems. The subcommittee acknowledged this theoretical basis, although a review of documented information could not identify fires attributed to the use of nonlinear loads.
The subcommittee reviewed all available data regarding measurements of circuits that contain nonlinear loads. The data were obtained from consultants, equipment manufacturers, and testing laboratories, and included hundreds of feeder and branch circuits involving 3-phase, 4-wire, wye-connected systems with nonlinear loads. The data revealed that many circuits had neutral conductor current greater than the phase conductor current, and approximately 5 percent of all circuits reported had neutral conductor current exceeding 125 percent of the highest phase conductor current. One documented survey with data collected in 1988 from 146 three-phase computer power system sites determined that 3.4 percent of the sites had neutral current in excess of the rated system full-load current.
According to 384-16(C) of the 1993 NEC (for the 2002 NEC, refer to 408.16), the total continuous load on any overcurrent device located in a panelboard should not exceed 80 percent of its rating (the exception being assemblies listed for continuous operation at 100 percent of its rating). Because the neutral conductor is usually not connected to an overcurrent device, derating for continuous operation is not necessary. Therefore, neutral conductor ampacity is usually 125 percent of the maximum continuous current allowed by the overcurrent device.
Also important for gathering electrically measured data from existing installations is the following.
Measurement of Nonsinusoidal Voltages and Currents
The measurement of nonsinusoidal voltages and currents may require instruments different from the conventional meters used to measure sinusoidal waveforms. Many voltage and current meters respond only to the peak value of a waveform, and indicate a value that is equivalent to the rms value of a sinusoidal waveform. For a sinusoidal waveform the rms value will be 70.7 percent of the peak value. Meters of this type are known as ?average responding meters? and will only give a true indication if the waveform being measured is sinusoidal. Both analog and digital meters may be average responding instruments. Voltages and currents that are nonsinusoidal, such as those with harmonic frequencies, cannot be accurately measured using an average responding meter. Only a meter that measures ?true rms? can be used to correctly measure the rms value of a nonsinusoidal waveform.
 
I don't know any one who I have ever worked for downsized a neutral in a MWBC.

I did however work in Oregon where all residential feeders had downsized neutrals.
 
Picture a three wire circuit. One hot lead has no load(open circuit) and the other has full load. You're going to have a lot of current flowing though that neutral. Better to size it the same as the ungrounded conductors.

As for a wye, picture one of the phases having no load(open circuit) and the other phases being used at full load. The neutral current would be about the same as the phase conductors assuming that they are equal.

There are "linear" situations in which the neutral current can exceed that of any one ungrounded conductor...

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=110403
 
On a 208Y/120 volt system the neutral current can be nearly the same as the phase current. For example:

120/240 system A=10 amps B= 10 amps N = 0
208Y/120 system A=10 amps B= 10 amps N=10 amps.


Infinity, thanks for pointing that out. I was just trying to figure that out for one of my jobs. The panel that I am working on is a 120/208V single phase panel. I haven't dug into it alot yet, but I was taking ampmeter readings to see if I can add a subpanel. Phase A has a load of 28 Amps and Phase B has a load of 23 Amps. I couldn't figure out why the neutral had a load of 26 Amps. I was expecting to find about 3 amps on the neutral (the difference between phase A and B).

So then, they must have only used 2 of the 3 phases to feed this panel to create power for the 120 volt circuitry. Does this make sense? I have never encountered this before and am trying to wrap my head around it. Is there anything special I need to worry about.


On a side note the customer wants to add a small range to the breakroom, I realize now that a this will pose a problem since the panel is 120/208V rather than 120/240V. What are my options for making this range happen?
  • Do they make a range that runs on 208V?
  • Can you run a 240V range on 208V?
 
So then, they must have only used 2 of the 3 phases to feed this panel to create power for the 120 volt circuitry. Does this make sense? I have never encountered this before and am trying to wrap my head around it. Is there anything special I need to worry about.
I think you are correct.

You need to count the neutrals as current-carrying conductors 310.15(B)(4)(b).

On a side note the customer wants to add a small range to the breakroom, I realize now that a this will pose a problem since the panel is 120/208V rather than 120/240V. What are my options for making this range happen?
  • Do they make a range that runs on 208V?
  • Can you run a 240V range on 208V?

They do make 120/208 ranges, many are dual rated.

A 120/240v resistance load will operat on a reduced voltage (208), it won't get quite as hot, but would not be expected to be a hazard. It could be a slight violation of the listing, but as I said, many are dual-rated.
 
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