mstrlucky74
Senior Member
- Location
- NJ
Neutral Needed???
- Thread starter mstrlucky74
- Start date
- Status
chris kennedy
Senior Member
- Location
- Miami Fla.
- Occupation
- 60 yr old tool twisting electrician
Did you look at Panel Scheds for PPL1, C2 and C3?
mstrlucky74
Senior Member
- Location
- NJ
Yes, but for what info? Those are the panels being fed and are 3 phase 4W +G.
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
The only time a neutral is required to be run is for grounded services and it has to be brought to the service equipment disconnecting means, 250.24(C). If a neutral is not needed in panels downstream of this point it is not required.
(C) Grounded Conductor Brought to Service Equip-
ment.
Where an ac system operating at 1000 volts or less is
grounded at any point, the grounded conductor(s) shall be
routed with the ungrounded conductors to each service dis-
connecting means and shall be connected to each discon-
necting means grounded conductor(s) terminal or bus. A
main bonding jumper shall connect the grounded conduc-
tor(s) to each service disconnecting means enclosure. The
grounded conductor(s) shall be installed in accordance with
250.24(C)(1) through (C)(4).
(C) Grounded Conductor Brought to Service Equip-
ment.
Where an ac system operating at 1000 volts or less is
grounded at any point, the grounded conductor(s) shall be
routed with the ungrounded conductors to each service dis-
connecting means and shall be connected to each discon-
necting means grounded conductor(s) terminal or bus. A
main bonding jumper shall connect the grounded conduc-
tor(s) to each service disconnecting means enclosure. The
grounded conductor(s) shall be installed in accordance with
250.24(C)(1) through (C)(4).
chris kennedy
Senior Member
- Location
- Miami Fla.
- Occupation
- 60 yr old tool twisting electrician
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
You are correct but fifth word in you should have said "grounded conductor" instead of neutral. A corner grounded delta is one place where you would have a grounded conductor but not have a neutral.
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
Not sure but I think the 4W + G is the is the set of conductors of the distribution the feeders originate from.
jumper
Senior Member
- Location
- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
mstrlucky74
Senior Member
- Location
- NJ
Chris the distribution panel and panelboards are 3 phase 4W +G.
chris kennedy
Senior Member
- Location
- Miami Fla.
- Occupation
- 60 yr old tool twisting electrician
So where is the grounded conductor in 2 sets of 3-500's and a 1/0 EGC?
Feeder sched appears to be wrong.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
In your application the service equipment must have the neutral run to it. Beyond the service equipment NEC doesn't require the neutral conductor if there are no loads utilizing it, it is design issue from there.
mstrlucky74
Senior Member
- Location
- NJ
When you say "grounded" do you mean "neutral" conductor? If so that's my question. Again, on-line calls for neutral, panel schedules don't.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
We have mentioned a few times that NEC doesn't require the neutral beyond service equipment if it isn't utilized. If you have loads that utilize the neutral you must have it at the load end. If you don't have loads that utilize it it is NEC compliant not to have one. If the designer wanted one anyway then you better be clarifying this with the designer.
ggunn
PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
- Location
- Austin, TX, USA
- Occupation
- Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
That's feeder schedule.
What do the actual panel schedules for PPL1-C2 and -C3 show for loads?
- Location
- Massachusetts
If we are going to set him straight lets really set him straight
Grounded conductor, often a neutral but not always. Required to be white in most cases other than when it is allowed to be bare.
Grounded Conductor. A system or circuit conductor that
is intentionally grounded.
Equipment Grounding Conductor - Green or bare
Grounding Conductor, Equipment (EGC). The conductive
path(s) installed to connect normally non–current-carrying
metal parts of equipment together and to the system grounded
conductor or to the grounding electrode conductor, or both.
Grounding Electrode Conductor - Any color but white.
Grounding Electrode Conductor. A conductor used to
connect the system grounded conductor or the equipment to
a grounding electrode or to a point on the grounding electrode
system.
mstrlucky74
Senior Member
- Location
- NJ
Aaah....sorry. See attached. Each has one circuit(for a panel) with a neutral. Guess neutral is needed to feed PPL1-C2&C3.
Attachments
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
A little more to add: "often a neutral but not always" is typical. If you have a system with a neutral conductor the NEC almost always requires that the neutral be the conductor that gets grounded. If you don't have a neutral, most common applications are three wire three phase delta system or two wire single phase system, you can ground any conductor - that conductor is a grounded conductor but is not a neutral.
NEC doesn't specify or prohibit any colors for GEC's.
Grounded conductor is also permitted to be gray, or have three continuous white or gray stripes on other than green insulation.
I cannot tell from the posted panel schedules whether the fed panels (PPL2's) require a neutral. There is no evidence of a downstream line-to-neutral load(s). If you can determine there is a downstream line-to-neutral load(s), fine... and an RFI is is in order.
mstrlucky74
Senior Member
- Location
- NJ
Smart the fed panels(PPL2's) are getting 4#2's and a #8 so they are calling for a neutral. That is a downstream line to neutral load based on what the schedule says. The PPL2 panels are also 3P, 4W.
- Status