Neutral Wire Size-safety

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wec

Member
When running an underground service entrance wire in SCHEDULE 40 PVC my calculations show that I must use size 250 since I'm going over 200 feet. In many locations I see a much smaller wire size for the neutral wire. The NEC code requires that there be less than 3 % drop from the meter base to the power panel...What is a SAFE WIRE SIZE for the NEUTRAL give a size of 250 for both phases of the hot side for 240 Volt....The 'theory' behind the smaller wire size for the netural of course assumes that there is load on both phases and therefore the overall current in the neutral is less...BUT.....I don't feel comfortable with this assumption since the load for each phase may be quite unbalanced at times....SO...BASIC QUESTION: What is a safe size for the neutral...should I just go with 250 for both hot and neutral ?? Certainly this is safe but maybe a little over kill...maybe something in between....I couldn't find any guidance in the NEC Code so can someone give me an answer...

thanks
wec
 

bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
The NEC has no voltage drop requires for general service, feeder, and branch circuits, but check your local building codes...

Article 220 provides the calculation used to determine the size and rating of the grounded conductor. Its not an estimate, guess, or rule of thumb issue. The code details this clearly in 220.61
 

wec

Member
Neutral Wire Size

Neutral Wire Size

Bryan:

Thank you for your response. My issue is really with the assumptions of the NEC code. I appreciate your finding of the calculation for the neutral wire size. What I have issue with is the assumptions. I think I'm just going to go with the same size as the calculated 'hot' wire size which certainly will be conservative.

I find that I have issues with some of the assumptions of the NEC code in general. For example: When I use 15 amp recepticles, rated for 15 amp, I use 12 gauge NM-B wire in walls and 15 amp circuit breakers in the panel. The weak link of course is the connections to the recepticle and the recepticle itself. Since people like to use 'triple sockets' and these new 'six socket' extensions the 20 Amp breaker is just not conservative enough. Each 'appliance' is of course under the 15 amp rating BUT if someone plugs in a 'wall heater or two' the circuit recepticle is over heated and then you have a potential issue. The breaker will blow at the 20 amp +/- 20% but the recepticle will over heat beforehand due to its 15 amp rating.....seems to me...

So, I appreciate the comment about it not being a guess, to me that's not the issue, its the fact that I don't believe the assumption in the calculation itself is always valid. Certainly if there is load for each phase the overall neutral current will be reduced but I don't think its wise to rely on this...so unless you see an issue with using the same wire size for the neutral as the two 'hot phases' I think I'll just do that......

Again, thank you for your response !
Kindest Regards
wec
 

wec

Member
Can't find 220.61 in NEC book 2002

Can't find 220.61 in NEC book 2002

I am aware of section 220.22 but I can't seem to locate 220.61....do I have the wrong code book ?? or is there another section that I can review....

Thank you again for your response...I appreciate it very much !

I'm a very conservative person and I want to insure that my installation is safe and very conservative.

Kindest Regards

wec
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
wec said:
The breaker will blow at the 20 amp +/- 20% but the recepticle will over heat beforehand due to its 15 amp rating.....seems to me...

Not likely, 15 amp duplex receptacle are manufactured with the knowledge they may be protected by a 20 amp OCPD.

Certainly if there is load for each phase the overall neutral current will be reduced but I don't think its wise to rely on this...

It is done all the time and it is safe.

The neutral must be sized large enough for the maximum current that can be applied to it.

In most cases that means a one or two size reduction, in other cases it may be reduced much more if the majority of loads are line to line.
 

wec

Member
Section of NEC which gives formula for calculating Neutral Wire size

Section of NEC which gives formula for calculating Neutral Wire size

One final question:

I was referred to section 220.64 but I have no such section in my NEC 2002 code book.....is there another section that shows the calculation for the determination of the neutral wire size for a three wire split phase system
PH1, PH2, Neutral 120/240...common service entrance to a residence ?

I have section 220.41 then it jumps to section (article) 225.1

I'd like to see what the NEC says I can reduce the wire size of the neutral to over such a distance. Our local code requires that we don't allow more than 3% voltage drop under full load and adjust the wire size accordingly independent of distance to insure less than 3% drop. With my anticipated distance of 200 feet I have gone to a size 250 instead of 4/0 for 200 feet, buried 30 inches below grade.

Thank you everyone for answering my concerns and the education !

Kind Regards to all

wec
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
In the 2002 NEC you would want to look at 220.22.

I suspect you could apply 220.22 to determine the maximum load on the neutral than apply your voltage drop calcs to come up with a reduced but but adequate neutral.

But there is no issue other than money if you want to run full size.

The large 3 phase commercial services we do are typically shown with full size neutrals even though a large majority of the loads are line to line.
 

wec

Member
research

research

My background is electrical engineering and biomedical engineering.
At the present time my research work involves solar energy, lightning safety, biomedical engineering, and power conversion.

Due to my biomedical engineering experience, I find myself being very conservative in my work. When dealing with AC power mains I find myself questioning some of the assumptions made by the NEC...such as the 15 amp rating on AC recepticles found in homes yet acceptable to utilize a 20 amp breaker. In my own home I utilized 12 AWG NM-B and placed 15 amp circuit breakers in those areas where I used '15 amp rated' plugs...in the kitchen area or appliance area I choose to install 20 AMP rated plugs and then and only then did I place 20 Amp circuit breakers in the panel. Throughout the house there is no 14-2 NM-B although it is acceptable for a 15 amp system.
All wire is 12-2 NM-B or larger diameter...

In biomedical engineering we typically are extremely conservative with our choices of components...for instance a Solid Tant Capacitor that has a 35 WVDC would never be used in an application where the voltage actually exceeded 15 volts. This conservative approach is based on statistics of failures in Solid Tant capacitors as a function of applied voltage versus rated voltage....

So, in the domain here, I am asking you folks who are more qualified than me to insure that my assumptions are correct. The line of questioning here is for some work that will be done by a certified bonded electrician....I'm asking to insure that I meet or exceed NEC requirements. My electrician is out of town this weekend and I'm trying to procure the correct size triplex wire so that I can install it in the PVC schedule 40 prior to him returning to town ...this will allow him to work on the panel, meter and leave the 'grunt work' to me !

Kindest Regards

wec
 

kc8dxx

Senior Member
Location
Ohio
wec said:
In biomedical engineering we typically are extremely conservative with our choices of components...for instance a Solid Tant Capacitor that has a 35 WVDC would never be used in an application where the voltage actually exceeded 15 volts. This conservative approach is based on statistics of failures in Solid Tant capacitors as a function of applied voltage versus rated voltage....wec

It's a sign of the times. I was taught a long time ago that capacitors must be rated 2x the peak voltage expected in the circuit. And that resistor wattages should be 1.5x the calculated worst-case circuit wattage, with one component failure. I later found both of these rules imbedded within a Military Specification, with statistical failure support. Can't remember what the MS number was. Nowadays, I see circuits with caps rated for 1.2x peak voltage, and resistor wattages rated for 1.1x calculated circuit. Not what I would call a quality design, but then I'm not a millionaire either. ;)
 

kc8dxx

Senior Member
Location
Ohio
Cost permitting, I typically size my neutral and EGC's to be equal to the largest conductor within the enclosure, minimum. I want that EGC to have as low an impedance as practical to get that current flowing to trip that breaker/fuse. This exceeds NEC. Probably proof that I don't deserve to be a millionaire. Penny spent is a penny lost.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
kc8dxx said:
Cost permitting, I typically size my neutral and EGC's to be equal to the largest conductor within the enclosure, minimum. I want that EGC to have as low an impedance as practical to get that current flowing to trip that breaker/fuse. This exceeds NEC. Probably proof that I don't deserve to be a millionaire. Penny spent is a penny lost.

Oversizing the EGC routinely does not make the installation any safer. It just costs you money. If you want to spend the money for a safer installation, spend it on additional GFCIs instead.
 

wec

Member
Tantalum Capacitors

Tantalum Capacitors

I certainly would never use a capacitor within 90 % of its voltage rating..even those that make the capacitors still recommend a 2X margin.

I like to have a little more margin just in case...as in my example of not exceeding 15 volts with a 35 WVDC capacitor...not to mention the calculation necessary for heating (ESR/ESL) D.F. etc....

As far as cost is concerned, yes I agree that has become an issue but just not a justification for a lousy design. I still recommend to folks that whatever their application they must insure that inrush current is quantified and the D.F. is determined, the temperature derating is included, that the voltage is less than 40% of the rated voltage at specified temperature, ripple current...etc...etc...

If I have a medical product that I'm working on I design it as if the life of someone I love depends on it !

Kind Regards

wec
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Welcome to the forum wec. :)

wec said:
Due to my biomedical engineering experience, I find myself being very conservative in my work.

Well that is good, I would hate to think that type of equipment was being designed 'on the edge'.

When dealing with AC power mains I find myself questioning some of the assumptions made by the NEC...

Now do not be offended but in my opinion your background in biomedical engineering does not begin to make you qualified to make assumptions about NEC requirements.

The NEC is a work in progress that is modified as needed every three years, the code is created by a wide range of people directly in the industry who are in a better position to decide what will and will not be acceptable.

such as the 15 amp rating on AC receptacles found in homes yet acceptable to utilize a 20 amp breaker.

Again this is all part of the listing process.

The internal parts of 15 amp duplex receptacle are in fact required by the listing to be capable of use on 20 amp branch circuits.

Imagine a 15 amp duplex on a 15 amp circuit, I can 'overload' that duplex by simply plugging in two loads that have a combined total above 15 amps.

As long as I have followed the NEC the circuit is still safe although it will likely trip out soon dependent on the amount of overload.


In my own home I utilized 12 AWG NM-B and placed 15 amp circuit breakers in those areas where I used '15 amp rated' plugs...

I have to ask why?

If the distances are long than perhaps 12 AWG on the 15 amp circuits will provide better serviceability (less voltage drop).

But it is really not safer by any appreciable amount.

14/2 NM is actually rated 20 amps, but like you the NEC is also conservative so there is an additional rule.

240.4(D) Small Conductors. Unless specifically permitted in 240.4(E) through (G), the overcurrent protection shall not exceed 15 amperes for 14 AWG, 20 amperes for 12 AWG, and 30 amperes for 10 AWG copper; or 15 amperes for 12 AWG and 25 amperes for 10 AWG aluminum and copper-clad aluminum after any correction factors for ambient temperature and number of conductors have been applied.

12 AWG NM is actually rated 25 amps.

That being the case in my opinion unless you have unusually long circuit lengths using 25 amp rated conductors for 15 amp circuits is both wasteful of material and labor.

in the kitchen area or appliance area I choose to install 20 AMP rated plugs and then and only then did I place 20 Amp circuit breakers in the panel.

Again IMO this was an additional cost that actually provided no increase in safety.

If you go and buy 15 and a 20 amp duplex receptacles from the same manufacturer and of the same grade than you where to take them apart you would find that the internal construction is entirely interchangeable.

The only difference between a 15 or 20 duplex of the same manufacture and grade is the face that allows a 20 amp plug to be inserted in the 20 amp duplex.

Do you have any appliances in your house that have a 20 amp plug on them?

yp17.jpg

The above picture is a 120 volt 20 amp plug, I highly doubt you have a single appliance that has this plug.

Now again I am not saying any of what you have done is wrong, just unnecessary.

The money spent on those items could have been better spent IMO on more individual circuits, GFCIs, CO or smoke detectors etc.

Feel free to ask as many questions as you like here, there are many here much more familiar with the listing requirements of electrical products than I am.

Bob
 
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