Neutral zwave dimmer and a fan

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michaelpanic

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Jacksonville, Florida
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Integrator / EC
This may have been answered somewhere else. The circuit for a bunch of multi tenant units has a single circuit with a fan some receptacles and some lights.
The genius engineer put all this on the same circuit. Anyway when you turn the fan on and between settings it flicks the light on for a sec. I understand what is going on opposition to current flow. I've tried incandescent and dimmable led bulbs different fan a different light fixture. Only thing that has worked is moving them onto separate circuits but this is not a option with out bunch of hole cuts. I'm not sure if this would work a minimum load cap or a neutral bypass which maybe the same thing as the cap. Any suggestions.
Thanks in advance.
Mike
 
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letgomywago

Senior Member
Location
Washington state and Oregon coast
Occupation
residential electrician
michaelpanic said:
This may have been answered somewhere else. The circuit for a bunch of multi tenant units has a single circuit with a fan some receptacles and some lights.
The genius engineer put all this on the same circuit. Anyway when you turn the fan on and between settings it flicks the light on for a sec. I understand what is going on opposition to current flow. I've tried incandescent and dimmable led bulbs different fan a different light fixture. Only thing that has worked is moving them onto separate circuits but this is not a option with out bunch of hole cuts. I'm not sure if this would work a minimum load cap or a neutral bypass which maybe the same thing as the cap. Any suggestions.
Thanks in advance.
Mike
Click to expand...
Need a different fan it probably has a DC driver for it to be "Silent"
 
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michaelpanic

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Location
Jacksonville, Florida
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Integrator / EC
letgomywago said:
I still think it's the fan
Click to expand...
I tried a couple of types fans same results
The current fan is a Hampton Bay rebranded Davis Lighting dld 121972 bk
I know its the fan and opposition to the current flow. This is why you use separate circuits and neutrals. This doesn't happen with a toggle switch only with a neutral dimmer. I was looking for easier solution than replacing 637 fans or cutting dry wall.
 
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letgomywago

Senior Member
Location
Washington state and Oregon coast
Occupation
residential electrician
michaelpanic said:
I tried a couple of types fans same results
The current fan is a Hampton Bay rebranded Davis Lighting dld 121972 bk
I know its the fan and opposition to the current flow. This is why you use separate circuits and neutrals. This doesn't happen with a toggle switch only with a neutral dimmer. I was looking for easier solution than replacing 637 fans or cutting dry wall.
Click to expand...
So if it's like other dirty sign waves I'm not sure that going to a different circuit would solve this the bussing of a panel will carry stuff like this back to other ciricits. You might have them add up and still cause the issues. Have you tried some other type of dimming method that is compatible with zwave I think there's a few different options for this type of radio control?
 
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michaelpanic

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Location
Jacksonville, Florida
Occupation
Integrator / EC
letgomywago said:
So if it's like other dirty sign waves I'm not sure that going to a different circuit would solve this the bussing of a panel will carry stuff like this back to other ciricits. You might have them add up and still cause the issues. Have you tried some other type of dimming method that is compatible with zwave I think there's a few different options for this type of radio control?
Click to expand...
I tried no neutral dimmer which was Joke made the lights go crazy
Tried couple different fan controllers
Tried different zwave dimmers from couple different manufactures
different light bulb types
I did run a wire on separate circuit to the fan and that solved it but the price for drywall repairs, painting ect. wasn't worth it.
I'm just installing some smart devices and really not trying to step on the electricians toes.
I suggested just coiling 500 ft of wire in the ceiling I'm pretty sure it wouldn't travel that far :).
Only flicks a off light on for a sec when the fan is turned on or change speed wall controlled fan switch.
Annoying situation.
 
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letgomywago

Senior Member
Location
Washington state and Oregon coast
Occupation
residential electrician
michaelpanic said:
I tried no neutral dimmer which was Joke made the lights go crazy
Tried couple different fan controllers
Tried different zwave dimmers from couple different manufactures
different light bulb types
I did run a wire on separate circuit to the fan and that solved it but the price for drywall repairs, painting ect. wasn't worth it.
I'm just installing some smart devices and really not trying to step on the electricians toes.
I suggested just coiling 500 ft of wire in the ceiling I'm pretty sure it wouldn't travel that far :).
Only flicks a off light on for a sec when the fan is turned on or change speed wall controlled fan switch.
Annoying situation.
Click to expand...
Not trying to step on IT guys toes but smart devices function poorly often. I have been hired twice to remove smart switches and the 1 time I installed a whole home of them the owners said they planned on removing them eventually. That customer is a big time AV company owner on the east side of my state and was looking at starting to sell these smart devices from control 4. I think the issue is the device you can do a test run with 1 fan but I think you'll find the issue will show up again through the panel bussing.
 
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michaelpanic

Member
Location
Jacksonville, Florida
Occupation
Integrator / EC
letgomywago said:
Not trying to step on IT guys toes but smart devices function poorly often. I have been hired twice to remove smart switches and the 1 time I installed a whole home of them the owners said they planned on removing them eventually. That customer is a big time AV company owner on the east side of my state and was looking at starting to sell these smart devices from control 4. I think the issue is the device you can do a test run with 1 fan but I think you'll find the issue will show up again through the panel bussing
Click to expand...
Well as one of the largest c4 dealers in the Country I’ll agree that lightning circuits and motors are bad Idea. I use Lutron on the high end products I never seem to have a issue. I never have a issue if the circuits are separated. Performance meh depends on what you are doing a zwave light switch to control one light in a apartment more of marketing thing for the client. The real difference was a new electrical engineer that didn’t separate the circuit. The Bedroom zone is cool because they put the fan on the smoke circuit lol.
 
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letgomywago

Senior Member
Location
Washington state and Oregon coast
Occupation
residential electrician
michaelpanic said:
Well as one of the largest c4 dealers in the Country I’ll agree that lightning circuits and motors are bad Idea. I use Lutron on the high end products I never seem to have a issue. I never have a issue if the circuits are separated. Performance meh depends on what you are doing a zwave light switch to control one light in a apartment more of marketing thing for the client. The real difference was a new electrical engineer that didn’t separate the circuit. The Bedroom zone is cool because they put the fan on the smoke circuit lol.
Click to expand...
How often do you find 3 or 4 circuits in a residential apartment bedroom. Here you'll find 2 bedrooms with everything on the 15 amp circuit. That above and beyond code. Someone told the engineer to save money so he did. Find out who did and ask for that money to do the new circuits. Then if it doesn't work it's on your plate.
 
synchro

synchro

Senior Member
Location
Chicago, IL
Occupation
EE
A minimum load cap is not going to help if incandescents are flicking on for a second. Incandescents will have a much lower impedance, especially when voltage is first applied.
And so it's evident that the dimmers are false triggering on voltage transients that are caused by the fan when its settings are changed.
letgomywago said:
Need a different fan it probably has a DC driver for it to be "Silent"
Click to expand...
I agree that a fan with a DC supplied motor has a better chance of behaving better, but they tend to be more expensive and seem to be more common in larger sizes.

Have you tried a dimmer that provides "reverse phase" dimming? They use MOSFET devices instead of SCRs to switch the power. SCRs can be triggered ON if the voltage across them changes fast enough (i.e., a high dV/dT). MOSFETs would be less susceptible to this. However, if the control circuitry itself is being triggered by the noise (which is likely) then a reverse phase capable dimmer may not help.
 
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michaelpanic

Member
Location
Jacksonville, Florida
Occupation
Integrator / EC
synchro said:
A minimum load cap is not going to help if incandescents are flicking on for a second. Incandescents will have a much lower impedance, especially when voltage is first applied.
And so it's evident that the dimmers are false triggering on voltage transients that are caused by the fan when its settings are changed.

I agree that a fan with a DC supplied motor has a better chance of behaving better, but they tend to be more expensive and seem to be more common in larger sizes.

Have you tried a dimmer that provides "reverse phase" dimming? They use MOSFET devices instead of SCRs to switch the power. SCRs can be triggered ON if the voltage across them changes fast enough (i.e., a high dV/dT). MOSFETs would be less susceptible to this. However, if the control circuitry itself is being triggered by the noise (which is likely) then a reverse phase capable dimmer may not help.
Click to expand...
Weirdly I put the minimum load cap on the fan and this resolved the issue I guess it grabs just enough of it.
 
synchro

synchro

Senior Member
Location
Chicago, IL
Occupation
EE
michaelpanic said:
Weirdly I put the minimum load cap on the fan and this resolved the issue I guess it grabs just enough of it.
Click to expand...
michaelpanic said:
Yes multiple units and I tried it on the dimmer and light only worked when I put at the fan. Another thing we did was up the wattage to 7watt dimmable the combination fixed issue.
Click to expand...

The MLC "minimum load caps" are a resistor in series with a capacitor, and when you put it on the fan it's apparently acting as an RC "snubber" and damping out the transients caused by switching the fan. And that would keep the transients from propagating over to the dimmer and false triggering its operation. It's not quite what the MLC was designed for which is providing a minimum load current on a dimmer, but it's evidently effective in fixing your problem.
 
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