neuturals

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I was taut that on a 3 phase panel, when going out to a panel with a black, red and blue circuit, their is a neutural and ground. If you have another color phase, you add a neutural. Is this true or do you put a neutural with every circuit? I couldn't find it in the code book. My teacher didnt either.
 

Dennis Alwon

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picklehead said:
I was taut that on a 3 phase panel, when going out to a panel with a black, red and blue circuit, their is a neutural and ground. If you have another color phase, you add a neutural. Is this true or do you put a neutural with every circuit?

If you have a 3 phase panel you can have 3 circuits, one on each phase, and one neutral.

If you have single phase then you can only have 2 circuits, one on each phase, and one neutral.

Yes it is in art. 100 but you must look under branch circuit, multiwire
 

iwire

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I will also add that you do not have to do it that way, you can also run a neutral with each circuit, the NEC leaves it up to the designer.

In some cases the jobs engineer may specify a single neutral with each circuit.
 

LawnGuyLandSparky

Senior Member
Dennis Alwon said:
If you have a 3 phase panel you can have 3 circuits, one on each phase, and one neutral.

If you have single phase then you can only have 2 circuits, one on each phase, and one neutral.

Yes it is in art. 100 but you must look under branch circuit, multiwire

In a single phase panel you have 2 legs, not phases.
 

ptrombley

Member
It is my understanding that the neutral just needs to be sized to carry the unbalanced load... so you could run 4 circuits from a 3-phase panel with two circuits from the same phase and a single (common) neutral... if it is sized large enough to carry the unbalanced load.
 

RUWIREDRITE

Senior Member
Neutrals

Neutrals

The old school way of thinking used to be 3 circuits ,run one neutral, lately I disagree. It really depends now if your loads are linear or resistive. I have seen on certain applications where a customer has the existing wiring of 3 circuits and one neutral and they introduce, electronic ballasts or computers and wind up overheating the neutral conductor. On a resistive load I haven't seen any problems. For years now our new methods have included a neutral for each circuit to prevent any future problems.
My 2 cents anyway.
 

don_resqcapt19

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RUWIREDRITE,
It really depends now if your loads are linear or resistive. I have seen on certain applications where a customer has the existing wiring of 3 circuits and one neutral and they introduce, electronic ballasts or computers and wind up overheating the neutral conductor.
Have you really actually seen that? There are almost no documented cases of neutral problems unless you are in a data center or other place that as a huge nonlinear load. I have seen no documented cases related to electronic ballasts. Yes there a lot of articles about how to solve this "problem" but almost all of them are written by some one with a vested economic interest in solving the "problem".
Don
 

RUWIREDRITE

Senior Member
Neutrals

Neutrals

Yes,
I have witnessed it's downfall. I was called into a site where bookshelves where installed in a warehouse. The aisles were lit with electronic fluorescent industrial shield fluorescents. The contractor who intalled them used M/C home run cable with 3 feeds per neutral design. The feeder cables were hot to the touch and the transformers almost lost there factory paint from the overheat. They had a cable failure which we repaired and all the white neutral conductors were black/ brown in color due to the heat.
 

iwire

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Location
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RUWIREDRITE said:
Yes,
I have witnessed it's downfall.

Strange as we use MWBCs all the time with electronic ballasts without any issues and I will continue to do so.

I am curious what the loading of these circuits where.
 

LAYMAN JOE

Senior Member
don_resqcapt19 said:
RUWIREDRITE,

Have you really actually seen that? There are almost no documented cases of neutral problems unless you are in a data center or other place that as a huge nonlinear load. I have seen no documented cases related to electronic ballasts. Yes there a lot of articles about how to solve this "problem" but almost all of them are written by some one with a vested economic interest in solving the "problem".
Don

Please provide a link to these articles, thanks.
 

iwire

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Location
Massachusetts
Look in past issues of EC&M, if you notice most articles pushing super neutrals are written by people employed by copper wire manufactures.

You could also stop by Copper.org.
 

LAYMAN JOE

Senior Member
ptrombley said:
It is my understanding that the neutral just needs to be sized to carry the unbalanced load... so you could run 4 circuits from a 3-phase panel with two circuits from the same phase and a single (common) neutral... if it is sized large enough to carry the unbalanced load.

How would you properly size that neutral if wired that way?

Say you have (4) 120v circuits and one neutral. All 20A and each circuit feeds a string of lights. Each string of lights draws 2000 watts.
 

iwire

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Location
Massachusetts
Joe that would depend on which phases each circuit was on.

If we assume all four circuits are on the same phase you would need a neutral capable of handling 66 amps.

Here is an example out of the NEC handbook of using one neutral for many circuits.

commonneutral.JPG


Exhibit 225.3 A 120/240-volt, single-phase, 3-wire system (branch circuits rated at 20 amperes; maximum unbalanced current of 80 amperes).
 

roger

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Fl
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Joe, along with Bob's post, in your example if you could some how guarantee that all circuits would always be on at the same time you would only need a #12 neutral which would be carrying 16.66 amps.

Roger
 

milwaukeesteve

Senior Member
Location
Milwaukee, WI
MWBCs are one of my favorite topics!!!!

As Bob showed in his diagram, you could have multiple(many) circuits, regardless of phasing, on one single neutral, so long as the neutral is sized large enough. I believe (code reference unavailable right now) that the neutral size limit for this type of installation is a #2.
Now, the fact that you could do this is seperate from the practicality of actually wiring this way. In general construction, this would not be used. Maybe in a control cabinet, MCC room, Cellular room, etc.... It would be very specific in its use.

Now when working with NM cable, you are obviously not going to find this, and generally when wiring a building for normal building power and light loads, you wouldn't even touch that.

Keeping it in the 15 to 20 Amp general loads(but not limited to), we use MultiWire Branch Circuits (MWBC). Some used to and still may call this a network. A MWBC consists of hot conductors that share a common grounded conductor (neutral). Note: hot conductors are also referred to as 'phase conductors' even though the 'phase' refers to the difference between the phases, not the conductors themselves.
In a single phase system, both hot conductors are 180 deg out of phase. Meaning their cycles and their sine wave are exactly opposite in their wave patterns. If the 2 conductors share a common neutral, their return currents actually cancel each other out. (example: 10 amps on one and 7 amps on another will actually have only 3 amps on the return conductor) This is referred to as balancing the neutral. If the circuits are equal, than they are balanced, if they are not equal (as in the example stated), then they are unbalanced. To be completely unbalanced, meaning one circuit is at maximum and the other is minimum, then the neutral would see the most current it will ever see. (example: 15 amps on one and 0 amps on another will have 15 amps returning on the neutral) There fore in a standard MWBC, the neutral conductor would need only be sized as large as the largest circuit conductor. In the above example, the neutrals would be #14's.

Now that same principle is transferred to 3 phase systems as well. The only difference is that the phasing is 120 deg apart (3 x 120 = 360). This difference in phasing does not change the fact that opposing phase return currents still cancel each other. Therefore we can have the 3 circuit conductors share one neutral, and all be the same sized conductor. The neutral just needs to be no smaller than the largest of the circuit conductors.

Note: this is why keeping your phasing straight when in the panels is very important. Running the circuits means jack squat if you don't land the conductors on appropriate phases.

Talk to your Master and have him show you the relationship in the panels of A,B and C phases, and how to keep things straight during installation, and the importance of such.
 

LAYMAN JOE

Senior Member
Bob and Roger,

What I want to know is what factors do you have to take into consideration when sizing a neutral for a MWBC (four or more circuits)?
Do you consider non linear loads, total possible calculated load per circuit, etc.?

Example 1:
You need to feed a furniture whip with (4) 120 volt, 20 amp circuits. Each circuit feeds (2) modular furniture work stations.
(6) work stations will have a computer and (2) work stations will have a printer and fax only. Its a 8 station setup.

Example 2:
You need (5) 277volt, 20 amp circuits to feed lighting. You want to set a home run J box out in the field to tap off of.
circuit 1 has 2000 watts
circuit 2 has 1800 watts
circuit 3 has 1200 watts
circuit 4 has 1400 watts
circuit 5 has 1600 watts

Balance the phases the best as possible of course. I really want to fully understand this so please continue posting.
 
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