New Arc Fault Breakers

[nolangro]

I have a problem and I am hoping for some answers.
I have rewired two homes in the last month, all new wire, new service, new tamper proof outlets, ect..
I installed ark fault breaker as per code, bedrooms, dinning rooms, ect, but when the local inspector used his $50 dollar tester we were unable to get the ark fault breakers to trip, I then bought my self a cheep tester and I could not make the ark fault breakers trip. I then went and bought a different brand of breaker, still the same result, now I decided to make a test device, I took a 20 amp regular outlet and wired it to one of the ark fault breakers right at the panel, once again it would not trip fro me or the inspector, but it will trip with the test button. as I stated I have this problem on two different homes on different sides of town, both places I used my test device of a outlet and ark fault breaker right at the panel, still will not trip, so where do I go from here, If i can not make the breaker trip for the inspector, who had no clue why this was happening, I can not pass my inspections

 

[Dennis Alwon]

If you open a receptacle and touch the neutral to ground will the breaker trip??? Has the inspector used the tester before???

 

[brother]

I was told that the manufacturers have not 'sanctioned' any other test method other than the test button on the breaker. So technically those so called 'afci testers' are not real testers and you should not fail because your testers do not work on that breaker.

 

[electricmanscott]

The ONLY acceptable way to test the breaker is with the push to test button on the breaker itself. If that trips it it is working. Alledgedly.

I have fought this battle with ill informed inspectors. I have found info in writting that states what my reply says. DO NOT let the inspector insist that his tester which may or may not work bs you into thinking that you are not going to pass. The inspector is wrong.

Edit to add info from Siemens...How do I test to determine if my AFCI circuit breaker is functioning properly?
To test an AFCI, make sure there is power to the load center, or panelboard. Turn the AFCI handle to the "ON" position. Press the blue test button. Pressing the test button simulates an arc to the AFCI sensing electronics, causing the breaker to trip. The AFCI breaker is functioning properly when the circuit is interrupted and the handle moves to the tripped center position. To reset, turn the AFCI off and turn it on again. If the AFCI does not trip when the test button is pressed, it should be replaced. Refer to a qualified electrician for servicing. You should test your AFCI breaker monthly to insure protection against electrical arcing faults.



Is there a hand-held device that can test an AFCI circuit breaker?
At the present time, Siemens is not aware of a separate unit which can completely test the operation and functionality of an AFCI circuit breaker. If you do see an AFCI hand-held tester on the market, it is advisable to carefully read the manufacturer's packaging. UL has warned of potentially hazardous AFCI circuit testers out in the market.

The Push-to-Test button is always an acceptable test for the AFCI circuit breaker, whether Combination Type or Branch/Feeder.

Edit again to add link to SQ D info....http://ecatalog.squared.com/pubs/Ci...lt Circuit Interrupters (AFCI)/0760DB0501.pdf

 

[stickboy1375]

but when the local inspector used his $50 dollar tester we were unable to get the ark fault breakers to trip, I then bought my self a cheep tester and I could not make the ark fault breakers trip.

A true AFCI tester does not exist, your using an indicator at best, pushing the test button on the breaker is the only true tester.

 

[growler]

I have a problem and I am hoping for some answers.
I have rewired two homes in the last month, all new wire, new service, new tamper proof outlets, ect..
I installed ark fault breaker as per code, bedrooms, dinning rooms, ect, but when the local inspector used his $50 dollar tester we were unable to get the ark fault breakers to trip.

I agree with what others have said and that the test buton is the only recognized test.

On the other hand if the inspector wishes to use this cheap tester then I would want to see it work at some other property. I have an arc fault tester that cost more than $50 and it does not work all that well when the receptacle is at a distance from the panel.

I would ask the inspector if I could follow him to his next inspection and see his gadget in operation. If everything worked fine there I would then start to have doubts and look for solutions.

 

[nolangro]

First let me thank you for responding to my inquire, I have printed electricman scotts link to give the inspector, to answer Dennis question the inspector used the tester on several jobs last year for me and it worked then but since the 2008 codes came out the local supply houses are stocking up on new ark fault breakers and I was wondering if there could be any changes in the manufacturing of them? I also read in the siemens paper work that the proper way to test was to push the test button on the breaker. also we took the netural and ground wire and landed them on both sides of the panel ( ground side and netural side ) and still no trip, On the one job I have a 200 amp disconnect under the meter I tried the breaker there and the tester would not trip there. It is very frustrating both jobs are goverment funded jobs for the elderly and low income homes and it must pass inspection for me to get paid, and of corse the inspector wants the tester to trip the breakers for me to pass inspection, Now my local electrical supply house has a tester they claim will trip the breaker but it cost $300 dollars and I really don't want to spend that kind of money, I feel if is the best tester on the market the inspector should own it not me .

 

[elohr46]

First let me thank you for responding to my inquire, I have printed electricman scotts link to give the inspector, to answer Dennis question the inspector used the tester on several jobs last year for me and it worked then but since the 2008 codes came out the local supply houses are stocking up on new ark fault breakers and I was wondering if there could be any changes in the manufacturing of them? I also read in the siemens paper work that the proper way to test was to push the test button on the breaker. also we took the netural and ground wire and landed them on both sides of the panel ( ground side and netural side ) and still no trip, On the one job I have a 200 amp disconnect under the meter I tried the breaker there and the tester would not trip there. It is very frustrating both jobs are goverment funded jobs for the elderly and low income homes and it must pass inspection for me to get paid, and of corse the inspector wants the tester to trip the breakers for me to pass inspection, Now my local electrical supply house has a tester they claim will trip the breaker but it cost $300 dollars and I really don't want to spend that kind of money, I feel if is the best tester on the market the inspector should own it not me .

You are so right. Show the inspector art. 110.3(B). Your equipment is working properly by the manufacture specs and by code should be passed. Can he produce an article in the code that supports his testing procedures? No, he can't.

 

[electricmanscott]

I would ask the inspector if I could follow him to his next inspection and see his gadget in operation. If everything worked fine there I would then start to have doubts and look for solutions.

I think this would be an odd thing to do.

Push the button on the breaker, see it trip, sign the card. That's the offer I would make to the inspector.

 

[acrwc10]

Quote:
Originally Posted by growler
I would ask the inspector if I could follow him to his next inspection and see his gadget in operation. If everything worked fine there I would then start to have doubts and look for solutions.

I think this would be an odd thing to do.

Push the button on the breaker, see it trip, sign the card. That's the offer I would make to the inspector.

I actually like the idea, it is an "in your face" way of dealing with an inspector that is putting his reputation on a Cheap POS tester. A more effective response maybe to call his superior and explain the situation and your argument to his tester.

 

[growler]

I think this would be an odd thing to do.

Push the button on the breaker, see it trip, sign the card. That's the offer I would make to the inspector.

I'm sure it is odd but I try to deal with the real world as it is and not as I think it should be. The only acceptable test for a GFCI receptacle is the test button on the receptacles and yet inspectors all over the country carry around little plug-in testers. It may not be correct but that's what happens.

Many inspectrs out there will expect to find an AFCI tester that will work as well as the GFCI tester.

Should there be a real field test for AFCI breakers and the branch circuits.
I think there should be, if we are to be forced to use them. If they don't work then what's the point.

What I think you are going to see next is each breaker manufacturer comming out with their own line of field test equipment. These guys have been learning from the Auto industry.

Check this out: http://www.eatoncanada.ca/arp/afgftester.html

By the way you will notice that in Canada Eaton uses the word test and not indicator for this piece of test equipment. In the US they would probably have to use AFCI indicator. It's all just a game ( or turf war).

 

[electricmanscott]

I'm sure it is odd but I try to deal with the real world as it is and not as I think it should be. The only acceptable test for a GFCI receptacle is the test button on the receptacles and yet inspectors all over the country carry around little plug-in testers. It may not be correct but that's what happens.

Many inspectrs out there will expect to find an AFCI tester that will work as well as the GFCI tester.

Maybe all true but rather than just blindly following along, why not show the inspector the errors of their ways. :-?

Are you really going to go spend time with the inspector so he can show you his tester might work sometimes? This is just silly.

 

[e57]

Looking for crap on the AFCI - I stumbbeled across this....

I have moved into a new home, and
I have one arc falt breaker that keeps on tripping. The builder has sent out (twice) the electrician who wired the house and they cant find anything wrong.
What should I do.
REPLY FROM 'ASK THE BUILDER
Ask the builder to find a new electrician who knows how to troubleshoot. The electrician you have is obviously out of his zone of comfort and knowledge.

REF: http://www.askthebuilder.com/320_New_Arc_Fault_Breakers_-_Small_Price_To_Pay_For_Peace_Of_Mind.shtml

 

[growler]

Maybe all true but rather than just blindly following along, why not show the inspector the errors of their ways. :-?

I'm not sure the inspector is wrong. I don't know what brand of tester he is useing , if it worked in the past or what brand of AFCI is being used.


Before this next comment I know that this is not our job to find this sort of thing but I'm not all that sure just who would notice under the current rules.

The manufacturers state that no test other than the test button on the breaker is acceptable (OK). They also state that the test is not mechanical but electronic in nature and can not be duplicated in the field ( this is really good).

Possibility: There have been cheap knock-off breakers in the past and will probably be in the future. What's to keep some company in a country without regulation from producing a knock-off AFCI breakers with a purely mechanical test button that leaves out all the complicated and expensive electronics. If there are no field test then how long would it take to spot these fake AFCI breakers.

I said before that the tester that I use will sometimes not work on long distance wiring. That's understood but I think I would have my doubts if it didn't work right at the panel.

Every piece of test equipment needs to be tested on a circuit of known quality. I test all volt meters on a live circuit just to make sure they are working.

There are always more than one possiblity either his tester is a piece of crap or the breakers are really not working. To see if the tester is working probably wouldn't take 30 minutes and changing out all those breaker I'm sure took longer than that ( trip to supply house). Even the arguement with the inspector could take longer than 30 minutes.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I'm not sure the inspector is wrong. I don't know what brand of tester he is useing , if it worked in the past or what brand of AFCI is being used.

The Op stated the tester worked on old Arc faults-- thye new ones are causing the problem.

to answer Dennis question the inspector used the tester on several jobs last year for me and it worked then but since the 2008 codes came out the local supply houses are stocking up on new ark fault breakers and I was wondering if there could be any changes in the manufacturing of them

 

[nolangro]

the tester I bought and the Inspector uses is a Etcon Arc-Fault Receptacle Tester & Tripper cost is around $50
The brand of afci are Siemens and GE. I bought several from two different supply houses in case I got a bad batch from the first supply house

 

[growler]

The Op stated the tester worked on old Arc faults-- thye new ones are causing the problem.

Dennis for some reason the OP failed to mention the brand of the arc fault breaker in question and also failed to mention the type of tester used by himself or the inspector.

The only description was cheap or $50 tester.

If you actually knew the type of breaker and the type of tester it would be easier to determine if they are compatable. Who knows there may be someone out there not having any problems or there could be someone that had the very same problem.

 

[brantmacga]

did any of you read that SquareD .pdf link that was provided?

Allow me to quote some of my favorite passages from this document:

The electrical industry has always had a fascination with testers. There are testers for ground fault circuit interrupters
(GFCIs), voltage drop, circuit polarity, circuit continuity and now the latest addition … the arc fault circuit interrupter
(AFCI) tester.

To capitalize on this new device, the AFCI “tester” has shown up in the market place. Many electrical inspectors and home
inspectors have purchased the tester with the idea that it will tell them whether an AFCI is functioning properly.
Unfortunately, confusing and conflicting results can occur.

I love that line that is in bold. How dare someone else try to make a profit off this BS?

It is important to recognize that the standard does not set forth the method that a manufacturer must use to detect the
hazardous arcing conditions and resist the normal arcing conditions. Manufacturers can utilize different and unique
methods to achieve the expected result. Therefore, manufacturer A may use one algorithm for detection and manufacturer
B may use something completely different. Both meet the standard and are acceptable AFCIs; they just get there by
traveling down different paths.

Because of the variation in AFCI designs, an AFCI indicator that may work with one manufacturer’s product may not work
properly with another. It is also important to remember that AFCI manufacturers are constantly improving their products.
These improvements can also result in an AFCI that functions properly and meets that standard, but no longer works with
a specific AFCI indicator.

Oh that's delicious! Did I take it out of context? Possibly, but the reality is that it means just what it says.

About the author: Jim Pauley is Vice President, Industry and Government Relations for Schneider Electric-North American
Operating Division. He is a member of NEC Code Panel 2, the NEC Technical Correlating Committee, the NFPA Standards
Council and the ANSI Executive Standards Council.

 

[growler]

the tester I bought and the Inspector uses is a Etcon Arc-Fault Receptacle Tester & Tripper cost is around $50
The brand of afci are Siemens and GE. I bought several from two different supply houses in case I got a bad batch from the first supply house

If this is the Etcon AF 120 circuit tester then this may well be your problem. It does sell for under $50 and it appears that some people don't think much of it because it does not simulate an arc. If you still have the package it should be labeled as only testing at 30 ma.

The better AFCI testers do simulate and arc. around 100 amps.

Have the inspector buy a better tester. Use that one for a paper weight.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

If you open a receptacle and touch the neutral to ground will the breaker trip??? Has the inspector used the tester before???

Assuming that the branch circuit originates at the service panel and there is no load on that circuit when you make the test, it is not likely that you will cause the AFCI to trip.