New Arc Fault Requirements

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horses

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In the 2017 NEC they have expanded article 210.12 greatly! I just want to make sure that I'm understanding it fully. It seems that all 120V outlets in a dwelling unit need arc fault protection, except for kitchen GFCI outlets, bathroom GFCI outlets. Just curious if this also includes all 120V appliances like fridge, microwave, garbage disposal, etc. ?

We do some hotels, and now article 210.12 (C) states that ALL 15A and 20A 120V outlets require arc fault protection, does that include the bathroom GFCI circuit?

Thanks !
 
infinity said:
Are you saying that it's incorrect?
Click to expand...

I want to chime in here.
im saying it’s skewed...
the graph makes it looks like GFCI is the reason for the downfall of consumer product and overall electrocutions.
education, better electronic appliances, grounding practices, and other safer building practices contributed also.
 
horses said:
In the 2017 NEC they have expanded article 210.12 greatly! I just want to make sure that I'm understanding it fully. It seems that all 120V outlets in a dwelling unit need arc fault protection, except for kitchen GFCI outlets, bathroom GFCI outlets. Just curious if this also includes all 120V appliances like fridge, microwave, garbage disposal, etc. ?

We do some hotels, and now article 210.12 (C) states that ALL 15A and 20A 120V outlets require arc fault protection, does that include the bathroom GFCI circuit?
Click to expand...

Comparing 210.12(C) with the list of areas / rooms in 210.12(A) is interesting. One also has to reference the Article 100 Definition of Guest Room and Guest Suite and Dwelling Unit.

As I read 210.12(C) I understand that AFCI is required throughout Guest Rooms and Guest Suites. including bathrooms and kitchen areas.

I note that a 210.12(A) Dwelling Unit is not all-inclusive in its list of AFCI-required areas, so a bathroom, garage, attic, unfinished areas, exterior, mechanical rooms, workshops and similar areas DON'T require AFCI. Note Horses, that a Dwelling Unit does require AFCI in the Kitchen.
 
Hv&Lv said:
I want to chime in here.
im saying it’s skewed...
the graph makes it looks like GFCI is the reason for the downfall of consumer product and overall electrocutions.
education, better electronic appliances, grounding practices, and other safer building practices contributed also.
Click to expand...

IMHO it is even more skewed than this.

If we _ASS-U-ME_ that GFCI was actually the cause of the beneficial results, this still does not speak to the benefit of AFCI systems....

Personally I'd like to see GFCI breakers combined with metallic wiring systems (MC, EMT,...) rather than AFCI. But that is just my unsubstantiated gut feeling :)
 
ESFI-GFCI-Prevent-Electrocutions.png


nice, i'd like to see the euro model re> RCD overlay on this

~RJ~
 
infinity said:
Are you saying that it's incorrect?
Click to expand...

Not disputing the efficacy of GFCIs, but when you see such dramatic shifts in data like illustrated on that chart, something has to be wrong with the data or the people presenting it. Assuming those numbers are even correct, there likely are other factors at work which influence the data besides the increasing number of GFCIs alone as that chart wants consumers to believe.

-Hal
 
al hildenbrand said:
Comparing 210.12(C) with the list of areas / rooms in 210.12(A) is interesting. One also has to reference the Article 100 Definition of Guest Room and Guest Suite and Dwelling Unit.

As I read 210.12(C) I understand that AFCI is required throughout Guest Rooms and Guest Suites. including bathrooms and kitchen areas.

I note that a 210.12(A) Dwelling Unit is not all-inclusive in its list of AFCI-required areas, so a bathroom, garage, attic, unfinished areas, exterior, mechanical rooms, workshops and similar areas DON'T require AFCI. Note Horses, that a Dwelling Unit does require AFCI in the Kitchen.
Click to expand...

Just so I understand... you are clarifying that in a guestroom , every 120v circuit including the bathroom GFCI outlet shall be on an arc fault circuit breaker? What about 120V appliances in a dwelling unit?
 
horses said:
Just so I understand... you are clarifying that in a guestroom , every 120v circuit including the bathroom GFCI outlet shall be on an arc fault circuit breaker? What about 120V appliances in a dwelling unit?
Click to expand...

Where are the appliances? In a Dwelling Unit, if an appliance, 15 or 20 Amp, 120 Volt, is in the Kitchen, then yes - AFCI required. 2017 NEC 210.12(A). "Kitchen" has no other restrictions.
 
al hildenbrand said:
..As I read 210.12(C) I understand that AFCI is required throughout Guest Rooms and Guest Suites. including bathrooms and kitchen areas
Click to expand...

Florida & California currently using 2014 NFPA-70, show 210.12(C) as AFCI for Dormitory Units. No Guest Rooms or Suits appear in the 2014 NEC.

Florida took 53 months to adopt the 2014 NEC, effective 12/31/2017. No word on when 2017 will be adopted. So no Guest Rooms & Suites in sight for Florida.

Many inspectors that should know this, won't catch it before they retire. Most inspectors in California still don't allows GFCI's per 406.4(D)(2), adopted with 2011 NEC.

As designated AHJ for over 50 yeas in NEC Section 90.4, the General Liability policy carried on my business, and my client's-property insurance are the only AHJ (Insurance Inspectors) consistently current with adopted statues & building codes.
 
al hildenbrand said:
Where are the appliances? In a Dwelling Unit, if an appliance, 15 or 20 Amp, 120 Volt, is in the Kitchen, then yes - AFCI required. 2017 NEC 210.12(A). "Kitchen" has no other restrictions.
Click to expand...

In reference to my appliance question, they would be in the kitchen! For the guestroom question, if the bathroom in a guestroom is on an Arc Fault breaker … it doesn't need be a TR GFCI receptacle? Also if they had counter top receptacles in the guestroom near the sink, they wouldn't need to be TR GFCI either because they are on an arc fault breaker?
 
Three unrelated items: Arc fault breaker, GFCI and TR (tamper resistant).

An AFCI breaker does not take the place of a GFCI so you need to install GFCI receptacles where required regardless of if the circuit is fed from an AFCI breaker.

As far as TR, all receptacles in residential need to be tamper resistant.

To do anything else will result in you pulling your hair out trying to figure out the few instances where this does not apply.

-Hal
 
hbiss said:
Three unrelated items: Arc fault breaker, GFCI and TR (tamper resistant).

An AFCI breaker does not take the place of a GFCI so you need to install GFCI receptacles where required regardless of if the circuit is fed from an AFCI breaker.

As far as TR, all receptacles in residential need to be tamper resistant.

To do anything else will result in you pulling your hair out trying to figure out the few instances where this does not apply.

-Hal
Click to expand...

Thanks Hal! We do mostly hotels, and we have always installed TR devices in the guestrooms. I just wanted to have a clear understanding regarding this issue. I do not do to much work on single family dwellings, but I try to keep up on the NEC changes. Thanks again!!
 
Uhh looks to me like consumer electronics electrocutions matched the overall trend. GFCIs are not required extensively in the work place but the overall electrocution trend was down a lot. Then we have a step change in 2009 then flat line while GFCI installs continued to increase.

My obvious conclusion is that the chart shows GFCIs had no influence or no perceptible influence on shocks at all! It was everything else that was doing it. Then around 2000 I think was George Bushs war on wall warts where we had a step change in power supplies for consumer electronics. So there’s your drop as far as consumer electronics. Everything else outside of GFCIs is what brought it down or they played a minor role. Otherwise the overall trend of shock incidents wouldn’t be dropping at the same time.

Or did I miss the obvious? Oh and combination AFCIs ARE both AFCI and GFCI. The trend would need to show electrically caused fires to see an AFCI trend but I’ll bet it won’t even be noticeable. That’s one of those solution looking for a problem things.


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Uhh looks to me like consumer electronics electrocutions matched the overall trend. GFCIs are not required extensively in the work place but the overall electrocution trend was down a lot. Then we have a step change in 2009 then flat line while GFCI installs continued to increase.

My obvious conclusion is that the chart shows GFCIs had no influence or no perceptible influence on shocks at all! It was everything else that was doing it. Then around 2000 I think was George Bushs war on wall warts where we had a step change in power supplies for consumer electronics. So there’s your drop as far as consumer electronics. Everything else outside of GFCIs is what brought it down or they played a minor role. Otherwise the overall trend of shock incidents wouldn’t be dropping at the same time.

Or did I miss the obvious? Oh and combination AFCIs ARE both AFCI and GFCI. The trend would need to show electrically caused fires to see an AFCI trend but I’ll bet it won’t even be noticeable. That’s one of those solution looking for a problem things.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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