New breaker box on a house

Status
Not open for further replies.
M

megloff11x

Senior Member
A co-worker needs a new breaker panel on his ancient house. One of the busses died, so he has half of his 120's and no 240's. For now he's living by candle light until the repairman can squeeze him in.

I counseled him to make sure that his checkbook was full.

I do industrial & machine design, so my knowledge of the code as it applies to homes is limited to more mundane questions. I picked up a book on re-wiring old homes from NFPA, and it's quite good, but for obvious reasons it has disclaimers.

I usually advise those with fixer uppers to pay a good electrician to gut the old wiring completely and make it modern while they have the walls open getting rid of lead painted plaster and adding insulation. Many older houses here are wired with non-rated cable stolen from the now closed mine by unscrupulous former workers. Also, the town gummint was (and is) still renowned for corruption and I have yet to see a home older than 30yrs with anything close to compliance, but all passed inspection. One had the main panel behind the kitchen sink, with a thin piece of veneer covering it - the enclosure cover having been removed because it would hit the faucet when opening!

Our state has adopted the NEC.

My question is, if your state is following the NEC, no more, no less, is there a "checklist" for various old house upgrades?

If you replace an outlet, you must also do A, B, and C, and should probably do D as well.

If you replace the main panel, what else needs upgrading?

Under what conditions would you have to retrofit AFCI and GFCI breakers and upgrade the wiring to make them work?

If you put on an additional room(s) and add circuits, what else changes? When should you get a bigger panel and call the power company?

etc.

Again, I prefer to gut it and make right now as it still usually costs less than the deductable on your homeowners, and if it was really bad wiring at fault, insurance might not even pay...

Matt
 
Matt,

I am leavin for Tallahassee from Indiana in the morning I will stop by if on My way and give You / Your co worker a bid. :)
 
Two things:
1. Contact your local AHJ for any local/state ordinances that govern the repalcement of electrical services.

2. Contact a reputible electrical contractor. They will also know the local rules and regulations.
 
I believe that the answer you are looking for resides in Article 80.9(B) and (C). But I should note that all of Article 80 has been moved to the Annex area, meaning that it is information and not enforceable. If your local jurisdiction adopts Article 80, when it adopts the rest of the NEC, then it becomes law. Otherwise, it is just a suggestion.

What this article says is that (1) Existing buildings that do not comply with the code shall be permitted to be continued in use, unless the AHJ determines that the non-conformity presents an imminent danger to occupants, and (2) Additions, alterations, and repairs to any building have to comply with the code, but that this work does not require the entire building to comply with code.

The way this is generally interpreted is that "if you touch it, you must bring it up to code." For example, if you rewire a bedroom, then that entire bedroom must meet the current codes (i.e., must have AFCI protection on all outlets). But that project would not cause you to have to install AFCI protection on the other bedrooms in the house (i.e., the ones you did not rewire as part of this project).

The bottom line is that is a judgment call on the part of the AHJ.
 
I don't think there are any "rules of thumb" you can use to determine the scope of work of such a job.

Find an EC you have confidence in and let him tell you what he thinks.

Based on your suggestion of the level of corruption the local government agencies are engaged in, I would view suggestions from the local inspectors as to who might be reputable contractors with great suspicion.
 
Thanks. My understanding is that for years the electrial inspector for the area was a fired bank clerk who had an "in" with the "old boy network" that ran the town.

We do however have several good and reputable contractors in the area and I understand that the current inspectors of all areas are actually qualified and diligent.
 
Upon reading your situation, above, Matt, I am put in mind of an inspector I met at a Trade Show some years back.

He was manning a IAEI booth and had a couple 4' by 4' plywood boards with him covered with "prizes" that had formerly been operating electrical assemblies in buildings.
  • There was a index card (recipe) box with working hinged cover that had been made into a two circuit fuse box
  • There was a ball of tape the size of my fist with about 14 cables, armor and NM and extension cord, coming out of it
  • The was the half burned outlet that had also consumed about half of the NM box it was mounted in
  • Etc.
He told me that he covered a couple counties out in the part of the State that doesn't get local inspection.

On occasion, he'll be called to a farmstead that he knows has NEVER been inspected. The only reason he's there is because an insurance underwriter somewhere has demanded an electrical inspection on a new or existing building before the policy will go into effect.

The inspector said, that the first thing he wanted to know, as he started the inspection, was how long the installation had been energized. If the installation was more than a year old and it hadn't had a fire. . .he said, glibly. . .It's safe.

I laughed roundly at that. . .but what he said has a ring of common sense.
 
Re: New breaker box on a house

megloff11x said:
A co-worker needs a new breaker panel on his ancient house. One of the busses died, so he has half of his 120's and no 240's. For now he's living by candle light until the repairman can squeeze him in.

I counseled him to make sure that his checkbook was full.

I do industrial & machine design, so my knowledge of the code as it applies to homes is limited to more mundane questions. I picked up a book on re-wiring old homes from NFPA, and it's quite good, but for obvious reasons it has disclaimers.

I usually advise those with fixer uppers to pay a good electrician to gut the old wiring completely and make it modern while they have the walls open getting rid of lead painted plaster and adding insulation. Many older houses here are wired with non-rated cable stolen from the now closed mine by unscrupulous former workers. Also, the town gummint was (and is) still renowned for corruption and I have yet to see a home older than 30yrs with anything close to compliance, but all passed inspection. One had the main panel behind the kitchen sink, with a thin piece of veneer covering it - the enclosure cover having been removed because it would hit the faucet when opening!

Our state has adopted the NEC.

My question is, if your state is following the NEC, no more, no less, is there a "checklist" for various old house upgrades?

If you replace an outlet, you must also do A, B, and C, and should probably do D as well.

If you replace the main panel, what else needs upgrading?

Under what conditions would you have to retrofit AFCI and GFCI breakers and upgrade the wiring to make them work?

If you put on an additional room(s) and add circuits, what else changes? When should you get a bigger panel and call the power company?

etc.

Again, I prefer to gut it and make right now as it still usually costs less than the deductable on your homeowners, and if it was really bad wiring at fault, insurance might not even pay...

Matt
Click to expand...

From what you said all he needs for now is a new panel.Unless changing this uncovers other violation then that should be all he is forced to upgrade and the rest is grandfathered.As to what the EC will suggest depends on how busy he is and how hungry.Best thing is to have a chat or visit with the inspector.It will be what he demands that counts.Chances are the house needs rewired but that can hit thousands easy
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top