New Business, need some feedback...

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jfls41

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Hi, I just started my own electrical business in the Pittsburgh PA area. I am putting together a quote for someone and need some feedback on estimating. I just did a job rewiring one bedroom and living room and underestimated the hours to do the job. I est 5 hours and it took me 15 to do it. I am new to residential electricity but feel I am learning.

Here is the situation, customer has detached garage with UF Cable running across yard buried about 1 inch or so and it is heaving up in places due to the frost, etc. The load center is clear on the opposite side of the basement and about 33 feet from exterior wall where I plan on drilling a hole for some Sched 80 pvc and running some new UF cable, I am going to rent a trencher and dig a hole 24in. deep to bury the cable. The underground cable will be about 48 feet distance to the garage so a total of about 80 feet or so to sub-panel in the garage. My questions, is voltage drop a concern? I was thinking about running 10 ga. to exterior junction box and then splicing 12 ga. UF Cable with 18" protective riser underground. Will this take care of the voltage drop? Also, I quoted this at 22 hours. Does it seem excessive or in the ballpark for man hours?

Anyone have any estimating tips for old work and how to get jobs lined up I would greatly appreciate it. I am running ad in local publication and haven't received one lousy call yet... thanks for help in advance.
 
Re: New Business, need some feedback...

HI Jfls41,
Have you ever used a trencher before? It is a nice name but they are brutes! The effort to dig that trench 24" deep is big and is liable to blow your time budget. :eek: GFI protect the feed you only need to go 18". RE: voltage drop, what size breaker for the sub panel?
 
Re: New Business, need some feedback...

I wouldn't worry about voltage drop under a hundred feet.

If the ground isn't frozen, then there's no reason not to dig 24". I can't really see how much time you'd save applying the cheats of 300.5.

I've cheated when hacking frozen tundra by hand, but if a trencher is going to make it through, why get tricky?

The condition of the ground is the big labor variable here, IMO. Being in the Northeast, you're about ready for a blizzard, right? :D
 
Re: New Business, need some feedback...

Hello Jlfs,
Sorry about the GFI remark to allow 18". GFI on a 120V line allows burial of only 12" :)
Anyway 12,18 or 24 a trench can take an enormous amount of time. There are some posts on this site discussing trenching, the consensus is to sub it out. But it sounds like you are hungry and want to do the job. Make sure you get a laborer for the day to just help you dig. Other things I learned the hard way:
Compile a COMPLETE list of the materials + rentals + digging labor.
Be certain the wire awg is correct. Long runs of big wire ==$s.
When your wire fill approaches 50% go to the next size conduit.
Double check your list for completeness (breakers, consumables (drill bits), straps, fastners, lumber.
Error on the up side for your time estimate.
22 hrs..I would go up to 24 hrs. sounds like 2 men the first day, you come back and finish the 2nd day. Good luck. Get the job and learn.
 
Re: New Business, need some feedback...

The best advertisment is by word of mouth. Be honest and fair and let your work and value of your customer service speak for itself. Being dependable is no.1 with customers. No ad will do that for you.
Practice this and your company will grow on it's own.

Wear a uniform, even if it is just you. The customer will respect the trade more and value your customer service better.

Answer machines and voice mail are a no-no when trying to start a business. People want answers or responces "now" from a live person, no matter what time of the day it is.

If you do something for "free" for a regular customer, always write up a invoice reflecting "no charge"
This will help them remind themselves of who was there for them when they needed a helping hand.

just a few suggestions.
 
Re: New Business, need some feedback...

I am surprised to hear the "trencher" is hard to use? The rental company says it is a walk behind and has a chain that will move all the dirt up to one side. I know there is some hand shoveling involved near the house and garage because the trencher only can get me so close. I have never used one but the rental place says I could get a trench 50ft done in four hours. I plan on doing the job in April so it might be muddy then but not frozen.
 
Re: New Business, need some feedback...

Think of what all you might hit with it.Why not hire 2 day labors for the digging.Safer and probably cheaper.If that was in Fl it would be a 4 hour dig problem,But in Pittsburgh it might be rough.I growed up just outside of Pittsburgh,sure glad im not there now :D
 
Re: New Business, need some feedback...

jjhoward, you said it only has to be buried 12" if it is GFI protected? What is the code number for that? Does the GFI protected mean on the breaker end of the circuit, I am going to use a 20amp breaker. The existing line is right next to a paved walkway going to the garage, easiest way of doing this is putting it in a schedule 80 conduit. Tell me the code no. so I can look this up for myself. Thanks
 
Re: New Business, need some feedback...

Hi JFLS,
Check out table 300.5, Column 4. The GFI protection has to be at the feed for the wire for this column, not the termination.
My trenching work would have been a better experience if the soil was very compacted (old, established turf on very packed soil.) If not, the trencher goes great on the first pass, but you really have a hell of time when you try to go again to get it deeper. We did 100's feet at 18", the trencher got us the first 12" pretty quick, the rest was manual.
 
Re: New Business, need some feedback...

The rental company wants you to rent their trencher, so of course they're going to say it's easy. It's not always so.

I did some trenching a couple of years ago for some detached garages and woodshops. Here are a few things you should know:

1. The trencher is designed to work in a straight line. If you are going to be burying UF without any conduit, you might be tempted to try to make the trencher curve a little bit to go around obstacles, etc. It's possible to make the trencher curve slightly, but it requires quite a bit of strength.

2. You really only get one pass with the trencher, so make sure you do it right the first time. The one pass will leave a nice pile of dirt next to the trench. If you try to go over the trench a second time, the nice pile of dirt will be in the way, which will make the trench more jagged and will cause some of the pile to fall back into the trench.

3. If you're going to use conduit (Sch. 80), your best bet is to use pre-made angle fittings and make sure your trench angles match them. You don't want to try to bend the conduit, and the connectors on the angle fittings break easily if you stress them.

4. Keep your angles to a minimum, and use bigger conduit than the code requires. Run individual conductors rather than cable, and have plenty of lube handy. The last one of these I did had me pulling 6/3 through 80' of 2" RNC. It was not easy.

5. Make sure you have a good corded recip saw handy for all the tree roots and such you're going to come across.

My advice is to sub out the trenching and watch them do it. You can always do your own trenching for future jobs if you want.
 
Re: New Business, need some feedback...

I've done lots of trenching - not that hard really. Just watch what your doing and go slow at first , at least until you get the hang of it. But remember you only get one shot - going over the same trench is a real pain in the --s!
Onlt problem i seem to encounter is rocks and roots. They have been known to make the machine buck up ! If you've never used one of these make sure you have the rental place explain how to install the chain - just in case -- this where the real fun begins ! :eek:

[ March 02, 2005, 06:51 PM: Message edited by: luckyshadow ]
 
Re: New Business, need some feedback...

Originally posted by jfls41:
The underground cable will be about 48 feet distance to the garage so a total of about 80 feet or so to sub-panel in the garage.
Click to expand...
Technically, this is a feeder. So, technically, you can't apply Column 4 of Table 300.5.
I plan on doing the job in April so it might be muddy then but not frozen.
Click to expand...
Muddy can be nearly as daunting as frozen. The trencher needs traction to keep steady pressure on the trench it's digging. Lose the traction, you'll get the trencher stuck, and/or the trench won't get dug either. :D

I'm not trying to rain on your parade at all, just advising. I hope you dig. It can be fun and relaxing. Then it gets boring. :D

I still contend that applying the cheats of 300.5 is not well advised, because you will hit your 12" target at the beginning, and then you will get a wheel of the trencher on a rock or two, or trench on a slope, and wind up with spots in your trench where the depth will shallow up a few inches. This few inches of difference will happen if you're 12" or 24", but it'll be way more obvious if you're intentionally digging shallow.

I guess it all comes down to your soil. That's something you can inquire about locally. Around Fort Collins, it's harder to dig west of town than east of town. The town is at the base of the foothills. :D
 
Re: New Business, need some feedback...

Bid it with the trencher, forget the UF. install conduit the whole way pull THHN to a subpanel 60 ot 70 amps, that way you can wire what ever is needed now and later that is a good seller, as the customer just wants lights and a plug, they dont know they need a sub, you do. and as far as bidding I break the job into small pieces on paper and put respectable time frames to each item add a pad of time to cover myself and if I think there might be things not seen or it might take longer as you referred to re-wire a couple of rooms, there is no exact method for bidding re-mod work, you start and go through what ever it takes to get the job completed in an profesional manner, but I 'll put a time frame to my bid and if it go's over it startrs a T and M after that and the customer is usually OK with that as they see you are there and working and yea you are having some issues with their house. It is better than giving them 10 hours of your valuble time.
 
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