New electrical box low voltage ceiling device mount

[TxFire1969]

I am a 20 year veteran of the commercial fire alarm industry. I have also been involved in the installation of other low voltage systems such as security, access control, sound, intercom, nurse-call, etc... I have served as a field installer, project manager & service manager over the years. I am currently an operations manager of a privately owned life safety company. I have recently been shown a new product that an old friend of mine has designed, patented and manufactured. I am seriously considering using them. I have done research in NEC, NFPA, UBC, IBC etc... and cannot find a definitive reason that this product cannot be used. I can see where some may make loose interpretations which could go either way. Of course there's always the possibility of job specs being written which could rule them out on isolated projects. I would like to get others opinions in the industry on this. This product is an electrical box ceiling device mount for use in suspended lay-in and sheetrock ceilings. I will describe as best I can. It is made 100% from galvanized steel. For each device installation there are 2 supports that firmly clip to the underside of two opposing walls of an electrical back box. The two supports span across the distance of a 2' X 2' lay-in ceiling grid and rest on the inside edges of the ceiling grid "T" in four locations. This creates four points of support for the device which evenly distributes the weight across the 2' X 2' grid area. It does not "clip" onto the top of the grid "T" in two locations as the others do.

Here are the pros I see to this mounting hardware:

It is made in USA.

It is much faster to install than the others out there which saves ME labor cost/money!!!

It gives the back-box setup a lower profile since it does not attach to the top of the box. (Good for tight ceilings/obstructions, ducts, pipes, etc...)

This one mount can be used on 1-1/2" deep boxes on up. No need to purchase extension pieces or different mounts for deep box/extension ring setups which I use on every job. (more money savings!)

No separate screws or clips to attach or keep up with.

When I tighten the screws to the device it does not raise the ceiling tile above the grid.

Can be also used above accessible sheetrock ceilings. No ceiling grid required.

The price is in line with the current back-box mounting products on the market.

Oh, and did I mention it's MADE IN USA...

Cons:

Not designed to work with low/high voltage electrical device back-boxes which have conduit or flex attached. (Not a con for me because I only do low voltage and my systems are rarely in full conduit in a suspended lay-in ceiling or accessible sheetrock ceiling)

Please offer your input/feedback on what other issues or cons you may see that may apply in your installations or in the area you do work in.

Thank you so much

 

[infinity]

I am a 20 year veteran of the commercial fire alarm industry. I have also been involved in the installation of other low voltage systems such as security, access control, sound, intercom, nurse-call, etc... I have served as a field installer, project manager & service manager over the years. I am currently an operations manager of a privately owned life safety company. I have recently been shown a new product that an old friend of mine has designed, patented and manufactured. I am seriously considering using them. I have done research in NEC, NFPA, UBC, IBC etc... and cannot find a definitive reason that this product cannot be used. I can see where some may make loose interpretations which could go either way. Of course there's always the possibility of job specs being written which could rule them out on isolated projects. I would like to get others opinions in the industry on this. This product is an electrical box ceiling device mount for use in suspended lay-in and sheetrock ceilings. I will describe as best I can. It is made 100% from galvanized steel. For each device installation there are 2 supports that firmly clip to the underside of two opposing walls of an electrical back box. The two supports span across the distance of a 2' X 2' lay-in ceiling grid and rest on the inside edges of the ceiling grid "T" in four locations. This creates four points of support for the device which evenly distributes the weight across the 2' X 2' grid area. It does not "clip" onto the top of the grid "T" in two locations as the others do.

Here are the pros I see to this mounting hardware:

It is made in USA.

It is much faster to install than the others out there which saves ME labor cost/money!!!

It gives the back-box setup a lower profile since it does not attach to the top of the box. (Good for tight ceilings/obstructions, ducts, pipes, etc...)

This one mount can be used on 1-1/2" deep boxes on up. No need to purchase extension pieces or different mounts for deep box/extension ring setups which I use on every job. (more money savings!)

No separate screws or clips to attach or keep up with.

When I tighten the screws to the device it does not raise the ceiling tile above the grid.

Can be also used above accessible sheetrock ceilings. No ceiling grid required.

The price is in line with the current back-box mounting products on the market.

Oh, and did I mention it's MADE IN USA...

Cons:

Not designed to work with low/high voltage electrical device back-boxes which have conduit or flex attached. (Not a con for me because I only do low voltage and my systems are rarely in full conduit in a suspended lay-in ceiling or accessible sheetrock ceiling)

Please offer your input/feedback on what other issues or cons you may see that may apply in your installations or in the area you do work in.

Thank you so much

So how do you secure the box to the grid?

Is this product NRTL listed?

Welcome to the Forum.

 

[jumper]

Did I miss a link or product number?

 

[TxFire1969]

New device mount

New device mount

Did I miss a link or product number?

No link or product name/number at this time. Just doing research on an item I was presented by an ex-coworker.

 

[TxFire1969]

So how do you secure the box to the grid?

Is this product NRTL listed?

Welcome to the Forum.

Thanks Rob for your prompt response.

Not able to find in NEC or NFPA specifically where securing box to grid for fire alarm/low voltage devices is required. Everything I read is geared toward high voltage electrical installations. Guide me to this info please.

I know he is currently speaking to UL about certification. Would UL be just as good or better than NRTL? Is certification even required for mounting supports?

 

[electricmanscott]

Why don't you just give us the product info so we can see it. What's the big secret. :roll:

 

[ron]

There is a path through the NEC beginning in 760 that ends you up in Chapter 3 that required the box to be securely attached to the structure.
It does not sound like it is securely attached to the structure.
I will have to re-figure the path that the references take from 760 to Chapter 3.

 

[480sparky]

No link or product name/number at this time. Just doing research on an item I was presented by an ex-coworker.

Is this a real item, or just an idea?

 

[chris kennedy]

I used to have but can't find a pdf from USG that dealt with grid types and support issues, guess that is on my old computer. Anyone have that?

 

[TxFire1969]

Response: New low voltage ceiling device mount

Response: New low voltage ceiling device mount

Is this a real item, or just an idea?

Real, just not mine to show. He only wants to show to people in the business he can trust, get feedback, make adjustments and move forward from there. I will let him know how intrigued you guys are. I, personally, would not use these for high voltage electrical devices of any kind or any other system installed with conduit/flex raceways to devices since they do not clip or attach to the grid. I brought this point up in our discussions and he says he is considering designing an attachment to allow for this but for now he is only focusing on the low voltage market. I just don't see the issue, code-wise or mechanically, why they wouldn't be fine for low voltage devices with open wiring the way they are now, not attaching directly to grid. Matter of fact, I think it provides a much more installer-friendly, time saving & secure device install compared to what most, myself included, use today. Besides, most of the other mounts are manufactured in China. I don't know about you guys but I would prefer to use something MADE IN USA when given the option.

 

[jumper]

Does this device hold the box securely in one place, or is the box floating?

Just because the box cannot come down, does not mean that I want it to be able to go up.

 

[Smart $]

...

Not able to find in NEC or NFPA specifically where securing box to grid for fire alarm/low voltage devices is required. Everything I read is geared toward high voltage electrical installations. Guide me to this info please.
...

Okay......

760.46 NPLFA Circuit Wiring. Installation of non?
power-limited fire alarm circuits shall be in accordance
with 110.3(B), 300.7, 300.11, 300.15, 300.17, and other
appropriate articles of Chapter 3.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

760.130 Wiring Methods and Materials on Load Side of
the PLFA Power Source. Fire alarm circuits on the load
side of the power source shall be permitted to be installed
using wiring methods and materials in accordance with
760.130(A), (B), or a combination of (A) and (B).
(A) NPLFA Wiring Methods and Materials. Installation
shall be in accordance with 760.46, and conductors shall be
solid or stranded copper.
(non-pertinent Exceptions omitted for brevity)

(B) PLFAWiring Methods and Materials. Power-limited
fire alarm conductors and cables described in 760.179 shall
be installed as detailed in 760.130(B)(1), (B)(2), or (B)(3)
of this section and 300.7. Devices shall be installed in accordance
with 110.3(B), 300.11(A), and 300.15.
(non-pertinent balance omitted for brevity)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

300.11 Securing and Supporting.
(A) Secured in Place. Raceways, cable assemblies, boxes,
cabinets, and fittings shall be securely fastened in place.
Support wires that do not provide secure support shall not
be permitted as the sole support. Support wires and associ-
ated fittings that provide secure support and that are installed
in addition to the ceiling grid support wires shall be
permitted as the sole support. Where independent support
wires are used, they shall be secured at both ends. Cables
and raceways shall not be supported by ceiling grids.
(non-pertinent balance omitted for brevity)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

314.23 Supports. Enclosures within the scope of this article
shall be supported in accordance with one or more of
the provisions in 314.23(A) through (H).
(non-pertinent A through C omitted for brevity)
(D) Suspended Ceilings. An enclosure mounted to structural
or supporting elements of a suspended ceiling shall be
not more than 1650 cm3 (100 in.3) in size and shall be
securely fastened in place in accordance with either (D)(1)
or (D)(2).
(1) Framing Members. An enclosure shall be fastened to
the framing members by mechanical means such as bolts,
screws, or rivets, or by the use of clips or other securing
means identified for use with the type of ceiling framing
member(s) and enclosure(s) employed. The framing members
shall be adequately supported and securely fastened to
each other and to the building structure.
(2) Support Wires. The installation shall comply with the
provisions of 300.11(A). The enclosure shall be secured,
using methods identified for the purpose, to ceiling support
wire(s), including any additional support wire(s) installed
for that purpose. Support wire(s) used for enclosure support
shall be fastened at each end so as to be taut within the
ceiling cavity.

 

[TxFire1969]

New low voltage device mount

New low voltage device mount

Ok Smart $, perfect. Thank you so much for your response. I do see some difference of interpretations and have commented below. Please share your thoughts.

300.11 Securing and Supporting.
(A) Secured in Place. Raceways, cable assemblies, boxes,
cabinets, and fittings shall be securely fastened in place.

(what exactly constitutes securely fastened in place as stated here? I wouldn?t reference 314.23 here because it does not specifically state it pertains to fire alarm or low voltage installations. To my knowledge, 314.23 is also not referenced in article 760)

Support wires that do not provide secure support shall not
be permitted as the sole support. Support wires and associ-
ated fittings that provide secure support and that are installed
in addition to the ceiling grid support wires shall be
permitted as the sole support. Where independent support
wires are used, they shall be secured at both ends. Cables
and raceways shall not be supported by ceiling grids.

Is it your interpretation here that each fire alarm device/back box should be supported independently to structure?


760.130 Wiring Methods and Materials on Load Side of
the PLFA Power Source. Fire alarm circuits on the load
side of the power source shall be permitted to be installed
using wiring methods and materials in accordance with
760.130(A), (B), or a combination of (A) and (B).
(A) NPLFA Wiring Methods and Materials. Installation
shall be in accordance with 760.46, and conductors shall be
solid or stranded copper.
(non-pertinent Exceptions omitted for brevity)

(B) PLFAWiring Methods and Materials. Power-limited
fire alarm conductors and cables described in 760.179 shall
be installed as detailed in 760.130(B)(1), (B)(2), or (B)(3)
of this section and 300.7.

Devices shall be installed in accordance
with 110.3(B), 300.11(A), and 300.15.

*This is the only mention of actual devices and I would interpret this to include the devices associated back box. NOTE: article 314.23 not referenced here.


Where is the direct link between article 314.23 and low voltage/fire alarm systems? This information seems to be only referencing high voltage electrical installations.

314.23 Supports. Enclosures within the scope of this article
shall be supported in accordance with one or more of
the provisions in 314.23(A) through (H).
(non-pertinent A through C omitted for brevity)
(D) Suspended Ceilings. An enclosure mounted to structural
or supporting elements of a suspended ceiling shall be
not more than 1650 cm3 (100 in.3) in size and shall be
securely fastened in place in accordance with either (D)(1)
or (D)(2).
(1) Framing Members. An enclosure shall be fastened to
the framing members by mechanical means such as bolts,
screws, or rivets, or by the use of clips or other securing
means identified for use with the type of ceiling framing
member(s) and enclosure(s) employed. The framing members
shall be adequately supported and securely fastened to
each other and to the building structure.
(2) Support Wires. The installation shall comply with the
provisions of 300.11(A). The enclosure shall be secured,
using methods identified for the purpose, to ceiling support
wire(s), including any additional support wire(s) installed
for that purpose. Support wire(s) used for enclosure support
shall be fastened at each end so as to be taut within the
ceiling cavity.

 

[Smart $]

... Please share your thoughts.

...

Securely fastened in place, while this term is used countless times throughout the NEC, is not defined in technical terms, but rather only through implicit phraseology. IMO it means fastened such that it does not move when moderate to less-than-extreme-condition forces are enacted upon the object of reference. As an example (also IMO), take a section of conduit which is secured in place by a one-hole strap. The fastening means of the strap should hold through any deformation of the strap caused by forces applied to the conduit.

314.23 is not referenced explicitly, but it is referenced implicitly in the 760.46 phrase, "...and other appropriate articles of Chapter 3." 300.11 and 300.11(A) are specifically referenced, but while it indicates the boxes must be securely fastened in place, only discusses the use of support wires. Since this mounting system does not utilize wire support, the box's means of support reverts to the appropriate article in Chapter 3, which is 314.23.

 

[gadfly56]

Securely fastened in place, while this term is used countless times throughout the NEC, is not defined in technical terms, but rather only through implicit phraseology. IMO it means fastened such that it does not move when moderate to less-than-extreme-condition forces are enacted upon the object of reference. As an example (also IMO), take a section of conduit which is secured in place by a one-hole strap. The fastening means of the strap should hold through any deformation of the strap caused by forces applied to the conduit.

314.23 is not referenced explicitly, but it is referenced implicitly in the 760.46 phrase, "...and other appropriate articles of Chapter 3." 300.11 and 300.11(A) are specifically referenced, but while it indicates the boxes must be securely fastened in place, only discusses the use of support wires. Since this mounting system does not utilize wire support, the box's means of support reverts to the appropriate article in Chapter 3, which is 314.23.

This strikes me as a perfect example of a code section that is vague and unenforceable. New Jersey has a Uniform Construction Code, but you put three AHJ's in a room with the phrase "as appropriate" and you'll get five different opinions :grin:.

 

[Smart $]

This strikes me as a perfect example of a code section that is vague and unenforceable. New Jersey has a Uniform Construction Code, but you put three AHJ's in a room with the phrase "as appropriate" and you'll get five different opinions :grin:.

Not a doubt on my part for even a second.

But on this particular issue, I don't see it as either vague or unenforceable. 760.46 and 760.130 both reference specific sections and subsections in Article 300 on wiring methods. Referencing 300.11 indicates secure support for boxes and other equipment. 314.23 simply expands on the same concept as 300.11 for boxes... just as you would look to other Articles of Chapter 3 for more specific requirements and/or permissions, or the converse.

Consider the alternative... 300.11 says "support wires that do not provide secure support cannot be the sole support". If you can't revert to another method of support by way of Article 314, then you MUST secure in place the box using only support wires. Exactly how does one accomplish that per code with say a 4sq box in the middle of a tile?