New home run AFCI or not.

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hornetd

Senior Member
Location
Maryland
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Journeyman Electrician, Retired
A customers 1940s era home has a fifteen ampere branch circuit that serves three quarters of the homes lights. Having accidently found the J box were the single phase multiwire branch circuit splits to serve half of the top floor from its other leg it occurred to me to offer the customer the installation of a new circuit to that J box to serve the two halves of the top floor in order to spread out the lighting load to avoid that one existing circuit's failure darkening most of the house.

What I'm asking is for opinions on whether this new circuit should be AFCI protected. The existing circuit cannot be protected with AFCIs because it is a multiwire branch circuit. At least I hadn't yet seen any two pole fifteen ampere AFCI breakers in the SquareD E-catalog. I guess I should explicitly say that the top floor has three bedrooms and a bath.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous for general use." Thomas Alva Edison
 
Re: New home run AFCI or not.

If you created a new circuit for the bedroom then yes.Why not leave the bedroom circuit alone and run new circuit for the other rooms
 
Re: New home run AFCI or not.

Originally posted by hornetd:
What I'm asking is for opinions on whether this new circuit should be AFCI protected.
Tom,

I'd say yes, only if you are extending the existing branch circuit wiring fed by the new overcurrent protective device to new outlets inside a bedroom.

If I alter the branch circuit raceway or cable without touching the outlets, then the outlets are as built and grandfathered to be without AFCI (unless there is a local additional requirement above and beyond NEC 210.12(B)).
 
Re: New home run AFCI or not.

My take is that AFI's (somebody called them "IFFY's" :D ) are a joke.

I think if you asked your inspector whether you needed to use AFI or not he wouldn't require them in your case. I might be wrong.

If you're trying to sell this as a protectective feature, then sell away.
 
Re: New home run AFCI or not.

"What I'm asking is for opinions on whether this new circuit should be AFCI protected."
Your answer lies in what you called it.NEW CIRCUIT
 
Re: New home run AFCI or not.

I don't have my code book with me, but I think Al hit it right. The code refers to outlets, not citcuits. No new outlets, then AFCI not required.
 
Re: New home run AFCI or not.

Originally posted by hornetd:
The existing circuit cannot be protected with AFCIs because it is a multiwire branch circuit. At least I hadn't yet seen any two pole fifteen ampere AFCI breakers in the SquareD E-catalog.
Actually, the existing circuit can be protected with AFCIs. I ran into a similar situation last year and wound up installing a small Siemens subpanel below the SqD main panel. I then moved the multiwire circuit to the subpanel and put a two-pole AFCI breaker on it.

I also couldn't find a SqD two-pole AFCI breaker.
 
Re: New home run AFCI or not.

Al briefly touched on the possibility of local codes having a say about this question. But I think one aspect of this discussion is worth a bit more emphasis. The notion of "grandfathering" anything is pure fiction. The rules are the rules. There is nothing in the rules that says that any new or changed rules cannot be enforced on a facility that was built under earlier rules.

Here's an example. You pull a permit for, and install, the wiring and components for a new hot tub. The Inspector walks into the house, looks at the service panel (for the new hot tub circuit), sees (for example) that there are no AFCI breakers, and concludes that the bedroom outlets are not AFCI-protected. You say, "Excuse me, but the hot tub is over here, not in the bedroom." Tell me what NEC article forbids the Inspector from writing up a violation. Tell me the article number of the NEC article that bears the title, "Grandfather Clause." Cite the NEC article that you can use as a basis for your plea, "I did not touch the bedroom circuits at all, so I don't have to install AFCI protection for the bedroom circuits."

So why would you expect that the Inspector would ignore the non-compliance with current codes in an area not covered by the permit? I suppose that would depend on the actual wording of the permit, and the wording of the local laws and regulations that govern electrical installations, permits, and inspections. In other words, there might be a "grandfather clause" in the local codes, or it may simply be a matter of common practice and common expectation. But it is not an NEC issue, and therefore you cannot rely upon the AHJ to view existing installations in the same way that you would view them.
 
Re: New home run AFCI or not.

Originally posted by charlie b:
a "grandfather clause" . . .is not an NEC issue, and therefore you cannot rely upon the AHJ to view existing installations in the same way that you would view them.
I agree that the NEC, as published, before it is adopted into law by the local jurisdiction having authority, does not have a "grandfather clause".

However, I note 2005 NEC Annex G 80.9(B) & (C) describes what I have come to experience in the wiring that I have performed (and do perform), as a "grandfather clause".

While Annex G is informative, and not a part of the NFPA requirements, it articulates what I have experienced as AHJ requirements. In my experience, this has been quite consist across jurisdictions.

For this particular question that Tom Horne raises, as I read the OP, no new outlets have been created in the beds. If no new outlets are created, 210.12(B) is not invoked.

Practically, on a service replacement or service size change in an existing dwelling, when I reconnect the branch circuit homeruns to the new panelboard overcurrent protective devices (OCPD) that I am installing, I am not adding new outlets in the beds, and therefore, the OCPDs are not AFCIs.

If I alter the homerun, without changing the outlets in any bedroom, then, IMO, AFCI protection of the circuit can still not be enforced. . .unless local ordinance tells me otherwise.
 
Re: New home run AFCI or not.

Al: I suppose we could have each saved a bit of typing if we had simply said, "It's up to the AHJ." That was the essence of my comment, though I must confess to having overly dramatized the point.
 
Re: New home run AFCI or not.

Originally posted by charlie b:
Al briefly touched on the possibility of local codes having a say about this question. But I think one aspect of this discussion is worth a bit more emphasis. The notion of "grandfathering" anything is pure fiction. The rules are the rules. There is nothing in the rules that says that any new or changed rules cannot be enforced on a facility that was built under earlier rules.

Common practice is that the term "grandfather clause" usually means that something that was legal when it was installed doesn't have to be brought up to current codes as long as you leave it alone. I agree that that NEC doesn't specify that it only applies to work done since a particular version of the NEC was adopted.

Here's an example. You pull a permit for, and install, the wiring and components for a new hot tub. The Inspector walks into the house, looks at the service panel (for the new hot tub circuit), sees (for example) that there are no AFCI breakers, and concludes that the bedroom outlets are not AFCI-protected. You say, "Excuse me, but the hot tub is over here, not in the bedroom." Tell me what NEC article forbids the Inspector from writing up a violation. Tell me the article number of the NEC article that bears the title, "Grandfather Clause." Cite the NEC article that you can use as a basis for your plea, "I did not touch the bedroom circuits at all, so I don't have to install AFCI protection for the bedroom circuits."


Perhaps, but if the rules were interpreted this way, that would mean that everyone would be required to bring their house up to current code every three years. Clearly, this is an unreasonable burden to expect people to bear. Imagine, for example, if multiwire circuits were prohibited in a future edition of the code. So I pull a permit for, say, adding a new circuit in someone's house, and when the inspector looks over my work at the panel, he sees that every old circuit in the house is a multiwire circuit. The inspector then writes up a violation and says that the entire house has to be rewired.

If the rules were enforced this way, I'd bet there would be a steep decrease in the number of permits applied for. I'm sure I'd see a big drop in business if I had to tell everyone that if I touch their electrical system, I have to inspect their entire house and will have to bring everything up to current code, especially since I work almost exclusively on pre-WWII houses.

So why would you expect that the Inspector would ignore the non-compliance with current codes in an area not covered by the permit? I suppose that would depend on the actual wording of the permit, and the wording of the local laws and regulations that govern electrical installations, permits, and inspections. In other words, there might be a "grandfather clause" in the local codes, or it may simply be a matter of common practice and common expectation. But it is not an NEC issue, and therefore you cannot rely upon the AHJ to view existing installations in the same way that you would view them.

Maybe it should be an NEC issue. It would be nice to have a clause saying that a particular edition's rules are only meant to be enforced on work done after that edition of the code is adopted. That's how the AHJs around here do things. I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect new work to comply with the current code.

In the various jurisdictions where I work, it's common to see language on inspection forms or in official documents that basically says that work that was legal when it was installed doesn't have to be brought up to code as long as it's safe to leave it as it is.

Another thing to consider is the legal implications of imposing ex post facto requirements on people. I'm no lawyer, but many of my friends are, and I'm sure they would tell you that ex post facto enforcement of rules is something that often gets challenged successfully in the courts. As an example, when Washington, D.C., implemented its very strict gun ban in the 1970s, they included a clause that said anyone possessing guns legally at the time the new law went into effect could still keep them. These "grandfather clauses" are often written into laws, probably so people don't sue.
 
Re: New home run AFCI or not.

Do not be alarmed, Jeff. I wasn't suggesting that we start enforcing new codes on old buildings. I was merely making the point that we should not automatically presume that we are covered by some legally enforceable grandfather clause. This is among the many things that are best handled by a conversation with the AHJ.
 
Re: New home run AFCI or not.

I wasn't terribly alarmed. With one exception, the various AHJs I've dealt with agree with me on this, and it hasn't been a problem.

The one exception lost its AHJ status last year, so all is right with the world. At least where I live. :D
 
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