New Housing Labor Hours

[IllinoisContractor]

How do you determine how many hours a project will take when estimating a new residential job? (By new residential job I mean a new house from the ground up. Service, rough & trim.) What formula do you use to determine the labor budget?

Do you have a basic labor unit per basic opening?

Do you use an assembly labor unit?

Do you use a Sq Ft formula?

Do you make adjustments based on the construction factors of the house? (Dimensional lumber that you have to drill through, open web joists, open trusses where you have attic space above, slab, crawl space, etc.)

Or do you not determine the hours at all and just use a per opening price that includes labor?

I'm seeing a wonderful diversity of ways to estimate jobs on this forum. I think that it's great to have a place like this forum where we can share our experiences and different ways of doing things. I've been able to pick up some great ideas that I've read here.

Thanks to all of you for sharing your thoughts and helping others expand their knowledge base.

 

[celtic]

The program/s I use (TNE/HD WS CD) have language like this all over the place:

"All Tables Assume Good Conditions"
_________________________________

"This means that there are few or no unusual conditions that would delay production. Conditions are good when work is performed during usual working hours in relatively clean surroundings and in readily accessible areas not over 12 feet above the finish floor. The temperature is between 50 and 85 degrees F. Electricians are working no more than eight hours a day and no more than five days a week."

IF the job does not layout as indicated by the language above, multipers get applied.
For example, running RMC up to 10' above grade, exposed costs more than running RNC below grade....by about 20%.(I know their definition of "good" is 12', but mine is 10')


For something like resi. or light commercial tenant space I will use "assemblies".
As an example, in resi., one outlet assembly might look something like this:

20' - 14/2 Romex
1 - Plastic SG Nail on box
6 - Staples
1 - Wirenut
1 - device
1 - plate
$68.21 @.55 hrs.

This price includes all "good" conditions, drilling, layout, under 10' high, etc. If I know in advance the job is a PITA, the PITA factor gets introduced as a mulitplier.


When I do my estimate, I just count the particular locations...duplex, switch, light ~ surface/recessed, etc. All the material gets counted based on my take-off.
"Almost" makes it idiot proof.


To answer some of your questions:

How do you determine how many hours a project will take when estimating a new residential job?

I let the computer do it for me
After awhile, you have a pretty good idea of how long a job will take w/o even using an estimating program...BUT, it's only a guess until after you done an accurate take-off.

Do you have a basic labor unit per basic opening?
Do you use an assembly labor unit?

Yup, makes things simple....simple to count, simple to adjust.

Do you use a Sq Ft formula?

Only as a guide....take-off, IMEO, is the only accurate way to estimate.
"On the fly" I'll tell a customer a particular job will be "about X$'s".

Or do you not determine the hours at all and just use a per opening price that includes labor?

It's important to know the hours a job will take. If you don't know "How long?", you really don't know "How much?" ...time=money

 

[IllinoisContractor]

So do you assign a unit of labor to each item in the assembly and then add them up to get the assemblies total labor unit? If so, where do you get the units of labor from and do you find them to be accurate?

 

[celtic]

So do you assign a unit of labor to each item in the assembly and then add them up to get the assemblies total labor unit?

If so, where do you get the units of labor from and do you find them to be accurate?

The labor units (LU) are built into the estimating programs.
The items I select to "build" my assembly each has it's own price and LU. My "assembly" is just a compleation of single items.

In my experience, the LU in the programs are a bit high ~ or maybe I'm faster than your average electrican ..

You can do it by hand if you like. I think RS Means has a book.

EDIT:
But for the $33 TNE costs, how can you go wrong?

 

[Rockyd]

Celtic, I think those numbers are pretty close...I'm normally .6 to .7 on most things, I think some are short on time 1.1 to 1.2 on some "different" (non repetivies, and 1 man doing, instead of two, on L2's, first time events) items. Call it the counter time, the fueling time, the van stocking time, the coffee break, etc.

Does that make it closer to actual estimate (what it cost you before P & O) vs "the bid price" (what the client sees)?

 

[celtic]

Celtic, I think those numbers are pretty close...

Funny you brought that up.

I just took a screen shot of a single duplex assembly:

INCLUDING...mobilzation, material handeling, demobilization, etc....it takes 0.9 hours to put in an outlet soup to nuts...under "good" conditions.

I left out the P&O to make the shot fit on page and be "readable".

 

[satcom]

Celtic,

Why are you scaring yourself, it's better not to know what it costs, get rid of that computer and buy yourself a nice dart board, you will get more jobs.

On the serious side, the TNE does a nice job, and when compared with other more costly estimating systems, it beats most of them hands down, when used for small jobs, if work load, or job sizes increase, then one of the other systems, with automatic take off would be better, but for the small guy you can't beat it.

 

[celtic]

I was thinking of upgrading my computer to the latest cutting edge model that money can buy;

 

[satcom]

The Labor units in TNE may seem high, but just have an employee do the job, they will be right on, or a little low, the a quick way to have off estimate numbers, is to use an owners labor units.

 

[celtic]

I have NO problem with the high numbers...take your pick:
- extra fudge factor
- extra profit

Either way, I don't actually lose any money (although I may not get the exact number I wanted).

 

[IllinoisContractor]

Do you make adjustments based on the construction factors of the house? (Dimensional lumber that you have to drill through, open web joists, open trusses where you have attic space above, slab, crawl space, etc.)

How much longer do you think it takes to install a ceiling light on the 1st floor where you have dimensional lumber to drill through versus installing the same ceiling light on the 2nd floor where you have open roof trusses?

What about a receptacle using the same scenario?

When you add up all of the different assemblies in a house, do you think the construction factors make a difference?

 

[satcom]

How much longer do you think it takes to install a ceiling light on the 1st floor where you have dimensional lumber to drill through versus installing the same ceiling light on the 2nd floor where you have open roof trusses?

What about a receptacle using the same scenario?

When you add up all of the different assemblies in a house, do you think the construction factors make a difference?

They not only make a difference, they can make or break a job, they are called the job conditions, another unit, that you need to add to your line items, estimators track jobs, they record actuals of job conditions, and use these units to keep line items, with different conditions in the ball park.

 

[celtic]

How much longer do you think it takes to install a ceiling light on the 1st floor where you have dimensional lumber to drill through versus installing the same ceiling light on the 2nd floor where you have open roof trusses?

drilling vs. staples ...same deal.
One price, it all pans out.

Now the upsell, is that 2nd flr light will probably be a CF or a recessed can vs. some POS surface mount.

 

[IllinoisContractor]

They not only make a difference, they can make or break a job, they are called the job conditions, another unit, that you need to add to your line items

So then would the most accurate way to estimate a job be to use assemblies that have different labor units attached to them based on different construction factors?

Using the same example as before, would you be more accurate in your estimating if you used different labor units for different installations? Let's say that you are installing a ceiling light on the first floor where the ceiling is solid dimensional lumber. That ceiling light assembly might have a labor unit of say 0.60. The same ceiling light assembly is to be installed on the second floor where you have open roof trusses and a labor unit of 0.45. They are the same assembly but depending on where it is in the house, it will have a different labor unit.

The difference would be even greater if you were using EMT.

 

[IllinoisContractor]

drilling vs. staples ...same deal.
One price, it all pans out.

With all due respect I'm not sure if that is true. Some might call it foolish but when it comes to a second floor, or for that matter a ranch, we have one man it the rafters pulling rope. One man sticks the rope up thru the hole in the top plate, the man in the rafters grabs it, takes it to the other hole, or ceiling outlet. It's not even close to the same amount of time that it takes for a man on a ladder to pull rope going thru holes in dimensional lumber. That's not even including all of the drilling.

 

[celtic]

Let's think about this for a bit....

A set of plans falls onto your desk...you start counting devices and distances...is much thought given to how the actual wire will be run?

Not really...get from point A to point B w/o getting all jammed up with the plumbing and ductwork...is usually the "plan".

How are you to estimate that?

 

[IllinoisContractor]

A set of plans falls onto your desk...you start counting devices and distances...is much thought given to how the actual wire will be run?

Actually I do give a lot of thought on how the actual wire will be run.

1) I do a room by room take off of the print.

2) I tell my program what floor each room is on.

3) I tell my program what the ceiling is constructed of for each floor. (Dimensional lumber, open web joists, basement ceiling, crawl space, open roof trusses, etc.)

4) Each assembly has different labor units assigned to it based on the ceiling type. Even if I use the exact same assembly (Ex. Ceiling Light Under 10') for rooms on different floors, the program automatically assigns the correct labor unit based on what floor the room is on.

6) I am able to automatically generate a quantity take-off report that the builder receives that lists the assemblies on a room by room basis. (Ex. Bed 2: (1) Single Pole Toggle Switch, (5) 15 Amp Duplex Receptacles, etc.)

7) I am able to value engineer the plan whereas I delete assemblies that can be eliminated and/or add assemblies that need to be added in order to meet code. The program automatically generates a value engineered quantity take-off report for the builder that lists what was added and/or deleted on a room by room basis.

8) If I'm using EMT in a house with a basement and decide to drop the pipe into the basement and connect the wraps, my material quantities are less for a receptacle on the first floor versus the material needed to go up and over on the second floor. With my system, not only does each assembly have different labor units assigned to it, but each assembly has different material quantities based on how your running the Romex/Wire.

My estimating program might not be a Home Depot program but it does alright.

I only mention all of this because I do believe it makes a difference on how you are running your wire if you really want to know your exact costs.

 

[celtic]

I only mention all of this because I do believe it makes a difference on how you are running your wire if you really want to know your exact costs.

Ever wonder why it's called an estimate?

You can spend as many hours as you want plotting and planning...at the end of the day, it's still a "guess"...or an estimate

 

[IllinoisContractor]

It's not plotting and planing. It's simply completing a take-off where the assemblies have different labor units and material prices to account for different construction factors. It takes no longer to complete than any other computerized estimating system. In fact it's actually faster. I use to have to spend considerable time putting together the formal proposal, contract pricing, quantity take-off reports, etc. after I completed the take-off. Now it's all automatic. I simply click "Print" and I have a professional looking bid pack to send to my customer.

My point is the closer you can get in predicting your costs (Without plotting and planning) the better chance you have of being able to consistently generate accurate estimates.

It helps you rise above the philosophy of "Some estimates I'll make money and some estimates I won't make as much money as I thought I would. It doesn't really matter cause it all works out in the end".

I don't like that philosophy. Personally, I'd rather try to fine tune my estimating so as to decrease the chances of not making as much money as I thought I would.

It's not even about being awarded jobs. If your estimate is too high, your not getting the job. If your estimate is too low, you'll get the job but maybe lose money because you didn't account for something in your estimate. The only way that it would work out in the end is if you were able to offset the "Too Low" estimate with a "Too High" estimate. Well that's not going to happen. You'll either be awarded jobs where the estimate is correct or you'll be awarded jobs where the estimate was too low.

 

[IllinoisContractor]

Do any of you guys keep your bids tight with the intent of trying to sell extras to the customer after you get the job? If so, do your extras traditionally have more profit built into them?