New Master Electrician/Pricing

[Whale Rage Forever]

I've been in business for myself for like half a year now and it's ok. It has its ups and downs, but I'd like to get opinions on pricing for anyone willing to respond. Sometimes I can't tell if I'm high or low. Whether a customer accepts a quote seems almost random sometimes.

I'm in the state of Missouri, for reference. Obviously, I'd like to know if I'm pricing low or high.

Examples:
1-A 50A circuit run 75' from a basement sub-panel to a hot tub. Using 60' of 6/3nm to go outside to a 50a 2 pole gfci disconnect and 10' of lfmc and thwn from the disconnect to the hot tub. I estimate 3 hours to comfortably do the job and I came up with $1475.
2-Aluminum Remediation for a 2 story house with basement. Replace every switch and receptacle with CO/ALR devices and use alumiconn connections for every other necessary connection for 135 total outlets: 31 lights, 45 receps, 32 switches, 14 3 ways, 13 misc junctions. Also, replacing 5 breakers with afci/gfci combos so as to not have to replaces junction boxes for existing gfci receps. I estimate 24 hours to comfortably do the job and I came up with $3850. Alternatively, I have found that roughly $28.5 per outlet/device has been an equivalent method for this task.
3-Upgrading a 100a service and panel to 200a. Meter directly on other side of panel. install GEC from main panel in garage to water main roughly 100' away in basement. I estimate 8 hours to comfortably do the job and I came up with $2075.

These are examples of jobs I've done. They all include permitting and inspections, obviously. I basically have been figuring out the pricing on my own and don't really have anyone to confirm this with. I'm not sure how you're supposed to go about comparing competitor prices. Any help/advice is appreciated.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

It seems the service change is too low but the hot tub looks pretty good, perhaps a bit high. I have not been in the field or dealing with pricing for the last 3 or so years thus I wouldn't count heavily on my take on it. I have no idea about the alumicon. Sounds low especially if you have to change out every box. The older homes may not have room in the boxes for the alumicon devices.

 

[ptonsparky]

Read up on Flat Rate Pricing.
IDK where in Missouri you are working but rural areas are going to be tough.

 

[James L]

I'm with Dennis. The service looks a bit low while the hot tub looks a bit high.

The aluminum fix at $28.50 per opening is about what I bid 3 or 4 years ago.

What part of Missouri are you in?

 

[Whale Rage Forever]

I'm with Dennis. The service looks a bit low while the hot tub looks a bit high.

The aluminum fix at $28.50 per opening is about what I bid 3 or 4 years ago.

What part of Missouri are you in?

I'm in St. Louis.

I've, admittedly, been wasting a lot of time so far on estimating. My system is this:

((((actual cost of supplies x sales tax)x markup)+ labor)x credit fee)- trip charge)=Total cost

So the hot tub I estimated would be:

((((782.51 x1.1) x 1.3) + 375) = ((1493.99 x (.035x1493.99))+.15)-75)=$1471.43, which I round up to 1475

I have been using this same formula for everything-including the other examples I gave, so it interests me to learn that it is apparently high for certain items and low for others.

What are examples of what others are charging now for similar items and how are you supposed to regularly update your knowledge of that information? What are some mistakes I might be doing with this? What other options can I pursue?

 

[James L]

((((actual cost of supplies x sales tax)x markup)+ labor)x credit fee)- trip charge)=Total cost

So the hot tub I estimated would be:

((((782.51 x1.1) x 1.3) + 375) = ((1493.99 x (.035x1493.99))+.15)-75)=$1471.43, which I round up to 1475

That's not a bad formula for pricing. But 375 for labor makes me think that's low now

Some of it is found in perception, though. People can freak out when a hot tub or car charger costs as much or more than adding a subpanel.

That's where I'm coming from with the 200a service being low. I'm in Kansas City, and I don't know anyone who will do even the most basic 200a service for less than about $2,800 - are you including phone/meet/inspection time in that?

As far as staying up-to-date, do you have any buddies in the trade to bounce off of? I have two here in KC. We'll ask each other from time to time about pricing, new products, code and inspection issues, etc.

 

[Whale Rage Forever]

That's not a bad formula for pricing. But 375 for labor makes me think that's low now

Some of it is found in perception, though. People can freak out when a hot tub or car charger costs as much or more than adding a subpanel.

That's where I'm coming from with the 200a service being low. I'm in Kansas City, and I don't know anyone who will do even the most basic 200a service for less than about $2,800 - are you including phone/meet/inspection time in that?

As far as staying up-to-date, do you have any buddies in the trade to bounce off of? I have two here in KC. We'll ask each other from time to time about pricing, new products, code and inspection issues, etc.

1-I attempt to make sure that I am making at least $75/hr profit, after everything is said and done. Whether that line of thinking is optimal or correct is another question. In the example given, the hourly rate ends up being well above that for 3 hours. That means there is comfort room in case something else comes up as well.

Basically, my next question is: seeing my formula and knowing the cost examples, is that hot tub price basically good? a little low/high? a lot low/high? Roughly where on the scale does it fall of being "good enough"?

2-Am I including inspections in that time? Of course. Am I including phone calls, meetings, estimates, etc? Lol no. I do a $75 trip charge that covers the estimate at least, but I waste so much time on calculating supply costs and actually writing up the estimate that I don't bother to track it because I know I'd be making like $2 an hour if I actually tracked time spent doing the admin work.

3-I don't have anyone to ask that isn't also uninformed. No one ever taught me the business side so I've just been figuring it out. Pretty much the only financial advice I ever got was from an old guy I know who said that "twice the cost of supplies typically results in a fair job price" which seems mostly-but not always-true.

Not to mention actually finding the work in the first place, which is a whole other beast. I regret to say that most of my work right now comes from Angi's list. I can see why a lot of contractor's hate them. There's definitely money and opportunity there, but you can't slip for a moment with how expensive their leads are. I have a meeting later next week with a marketing company to see about optimizing my website and spreading out over more sources, but I basically don't have a lot of knowledgebase on where to actually find work.

 

[blueheels2]

It’s all low to me. That’s probably a 3000 dollar hit tub for me. Receptacles and switches with alumiconns. Is about $75 a device. They are a pain in the neck. And the service would be at least $3500 maybe more.

 

[blueheels2]

1-I attempt to make sure that I am making at least $75/hr profit, after everything is said and done. Whether that line of thinking is optimal or correct is another question. In the example given, the hourly rate ends up being well above that for 3 hours. That means there is comfort room in case something else comes up as well.

Basically, my next question is: seeing my formula and knowing the cost examples, is that hot tub price basically good? a little low/high? a lot low/high? Roughly where on the scale does it fall of being "good enough"?

2-Am I including inspections in that time? Of course. Am I including phone calls, meetings, estimates, etc? Lol no. I do a $75 trip charge that covers the estimate at least, but I waste so much time on calculating supply costs and actually writing up the estimate that I don't bother to track it because I know I'd be making like $2 an hour if I actually tracked time spent doing the admin work.

3-I don't have anyone to ask that isn't also uninformed. No one ever taught me the business side so I've just been figuring it out. Pretty much the only financial advice I ever got was from an old guy I know who said that "twice the cost of supplies typically results in a fair job price" which seems mostly-but not always-true.

Not to mention actually finding the work in the first place, which is a whole other beast. I regret to say that most of my work right now comes from Angi's list. I can see why a lot of contractor's hate them. There's definitely money and opportunity there, but you can't slip for a moment with how expensive their leads are. I have a meeting later next week with a marketing company to see about optimizing my website and spreading out over more sources, but I basically don't have a lot of knowledgebase on where to actually find work.

That double the materials is wrong. Materials times 3 is more accurate and may still be low but I know I won’t lose money there. $100 material is a 300$ job. But I treat that like I do square foot pricing. I run the numbers using unit pricing add it all up and then I divide by sq foot to see where I am at. But the square ft price is an afterthought. It really has no bearing on the price.

 

[Whale Rage Forever]

It’s all low to me. That’s probably a 3000 dollar hit tub for me. Receptacles and switches with alumiconns. Is about $75 a device. They are a pain in the neck. And the service would be at least $3500 maybe more.

So, without fear of me showing my own ignorance here...

How much money do you feel I should be charging? At the $1475 price I quoted for the hot tub for 3 hours work, I am still making about $135/hr for my time as profit. If I charged them $3000 then:

1-I think they'd call me a scam and don't think they'd do it.
2-If they did I would be making an effective rate of $625/hr for a total profit of around $1875. Are you telling me that this is legitimately what other electricians are charging? Because that sounds insane.

That seems unbelievable.

 

[letgomywago]

So, without fear of me showing my own ignorance here...

How much money do you feel I should be charging? At the $1475 price I quoted for the hot tub for 3 hours work, I am still making about $135/hr for my time as profit. If I charged them $3000 then:

1-I think they'd call me a scam and don't think they'd do it.
2-If they did I would be making an effective rate of $625/hr for a total profit of around $1875. Are you telling me that this is legitimately what other electricians are charging? Because that sounds insane.

That seems unbelievable.

The hot tub will take more than 3 hours probably when you include coming out and pricing it, getting materials, and if there's any missed items like needing to gfi an existing light that's to close for example. I've done a couple that fast but usually it's a 5 hour ordeal for a smaller one and a whole day for a larger install with lots conduit and maybe even a couple trips out if underground in a slab is part of it.

 

[James L]

I agree that materials x 3 is generally going to sum up better than x 2

I do residential remodel and I'm just about materials x 5 (I price per opening)

I also think 3 hours is low for a hot tub, especially with a bid first, then trip(s) for materials.

 

[mtnelect]

Hey, we are a vanishing trade, charge whatsoever the market can bear !

 

[letgomywago]

Hey, we are a vanishing trade, charge whatsoever the market can bear !

Idk what it's like in Missouri but from what I've heard the south is brutal to be paid and is needing a lot of revitalizing to repair existing infrastructure.

 

[Whale Rage Forever]

The hot tub will take more than 3 hours probably when you include coming out and pricing it, getting materials, and if there's any missed items like needing to gfi an existing light that's to close for example. I've done a couple that fast but usually it's a 5 hour ordeal for a smaller one and a whole day for a larger install with lots conduit and maybe even a couple trips out if underground in a slab is part of it.

I'll concede that with the time for estimating, getting supplies, travel, and all the other non-labor portions it adds up. Up to now I've just been eating that time.

 

[blueheels2]

The hot tub will take more than 3 hours probably when you include coming out and pricing it, getting materials, and if there's any missed items like needing to gfi an existing light that's to close for example. I've done a couple that fast but usually it's a 5 hour ordeal for a smaller one and a whole day for a larger install with lots conduit and maybe even a couple trips out if underground in a slab is part of it.

Yeah this is what I was going to post. A hot tub is a minimum 5 hour job i don’t care if it took me 3. And most I bill at 8 hours because really at 5 it killed my whole day. The hard ones get billed at 10-15.

 

[letgomywago]

I'll concede that with the time for estimating, getting supplies, travel, and all the other non-labor portions it adds up. Up to now I've just been eating that time.

So jobs like this that have about half the job being "unbilled" time you need to view as a whole. It's different than say a whole house where you go once or twice to the supply house for days of work. Doing it this way where you eat that time might end up costing you money in the end to the point you might as well stear clear of them. Other jobs that are similar to this I've found are. Kitchen remodels, generator interlocks, hot tubs, car chargers, and odd ball "while you're here". Those jobs are needed to be serviced and can actually make a good profit but you need to bake in a higher price unless you're getting paid for trips to the supply house on time and Material.

 

[Whale Rage Forever]

So jobs like this that have about half the job being "unbilled" time you need to view as a whole. It's different than say a whole house where you go once or twice to the supply house for days of work. Doing it this way where you eat that time might end up costing you money in the end to the point you might as well stear clear of them. Other jobs that are similar to this I've found are. Kitchen remodels, generator interlocks, hot tubs, car chargers, and odd ball "while you're here". Those jobs are needed to be serviced and can actually make a good profit but you need to bake in a higher price unless you're getting paid for trips to the supply house on time and Material.

What is a normal, market hourly rate for a master electrician to make at this point in time? How do you bake in the job without knowing the target number?

I don't get a lot of work right now, but the work that I do end up with always ends with a profit of at least a rate of $75/hr for labor time spent, though it usually is around $125. That seems reasonable to me, and just like what @James L said I feel like if I told a customer it was going to be the same to run a single circuit as it would be to replace their whole panel they'd laugh and go somewhere else.

I am legit asking: if everyone charges around a certain price for a task than great, I'll charge more. But how are you supposed to keep track of updated market rates? Or know what rough value your profession is worth? Aside from looking at IBEW rates for the local area there's no resource available that I know of for knowing what I should be charging.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Idk what it's like in Missouri but from what I've heard the south is brutal to be paid and is needing a lot of revitalizing to repair existing infrastructure.

Around here we are definitely the lowest paid trade of the top 3--Hvac, Plumbing and then Electricians

 

[letgomywago]

What is a normal, market hourly rate for a master electrician to make at this point in time? How do you bake in the job without knowing the target number?

I don't get a lot of work right now, but the work that I do end up with always ends with a profit of at least a rate of $75/hr for labor time spent, though it usually is around $125. That seems reasonable to me, and just like what @James L said I feel like if I told a customer it was going to be the same to run a single circuit as it would be to replace their whole panel they'd laugh and go somewhere else.

I am legit asking: if everyone charges around a certain price for a task than great, I'll charge more. But how are you supposed to keep track of updated market rates? Or know what rough value your profession is worth? Aside from looking at IBEW rates for the local area there's no resource available that I know of for knowing what I should be charging.

It's done by figuring our how much you pay yourself for labor, then materials, then overhead, then separately profit. Any one man band will work twice as hard and fast as a normal company man so keep this in mind when pricing out that you're not competing against yourself your competition is people who have bloated companies. The other one man shows are your allies and you'd want to not compete much with them but instead help each other.