New to the business......

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vhterway

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I have been a maintenance electrician for the last eleven years for a non-union steel mill. Last year I took it upon myself to take the exam prep class for a journeyman's license and passed the test the first time. Initially I only did this for my own betterment. Since then, I have had several people ask me to do side jobs for them and now they seem to be getting bigger. I have been asked to upgrade a 100A service to a 200A service. I feel confident that I can do the job without a problem, my hang up is dealing with inspections. I have never done this before and don't know what to expect. Since I only have a journeyman's license, can the homeowner pull the permits and have me do the work? (This is in N. IN, btw) Besides bigger feeder wire and arc-fault breakers, does just changing the panel require anything else? As I said, I feel confident that I can do the job, so I feel incompetent asking these questions. Any help or insight would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
 
Not sure about IN, but most states require a Master's license to be able to pull a permit and do a new service upgrade - any electrical work, for that matter.
 
What County are you in up there? If you are in porter county then there is no masters requirement that I know of. I can put you in touch with a buddy of mine up there who could better answer your questions PM me.
 
Generally speaking, it's illegal for a homeowner to pull a permit for someone else to do the work. The whole idea of a homeowner's permit is that the homeowner is going to do the work himself. Whoever does the work is supposed to pull the permit.

As for actually doing the upgrade, there may be local rules about other things you have to do when upgrading the service, so it would be a good idea to ask. In one jurisdiction where I work, if you do anything with the panel, it triggers an ordinance where you have to do all kinds of other stuff in the house, like minimum number of receptacles in each room, minimum circuit sizes in bathrooms and kitchens, etc. It's their way of forcing homeowners to update their electrical system. But most jurisdictions I work in don't require this.

Otherwise, the main things to pay attention to are the right size wires for the breakers and proper grounding. Also, it would be a good idea to see if an outside disconnect switch is required. The code is vague on this point (230.70(A)(1)), so local AHJs get to decide if your panel is "nearest" enough the point of entrance to avoid the requirement. Some AHJs let me have a few feet, while others allow very little leeway.
 
Don't perform ANY work without the proper licensing, insurance, and a retained lawyer. All work should be on contract and not over a handshake.
 
bphgravity said:
Don't perform ANY work without the proper licensing, insurance, and a retained lawyer. All work should be on contract and not over a handshake.
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Bryan gave you the right answer. Having said that, it is common around here in NJ for unlicensed electricians to do exactly what you've described. The homeowner can legally take out the permits and have the job inspected upon completion. Who actually does the work is another issue. Based on the things that Bryan outlined it is best not to do the job in the first place. For one thing there could be a major liability issue if something happened down the road.
 
bphgravity said:
Don't perform ANY work without the proper licensing, insurance, and a retained lawyer. All work should be on contract and not over a handshake.
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Although I am properly licensed, bonded, and insured, I do pretty much everything via handshake. Seems to be working out OK.
 
infinity said:
Bryan gave you the right answer. Having said that, it is common around here in NJ for unlicensed electricians to do exactly what you've described.
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I prefer the term "unlicensed handyman" since you generally can't be called an electrician unless you are licensed.
 
jeff43222 said:
I prefer the term "unlicensed handyman" since you generally can't be called an electrician unless you are licensed.
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In Indiana there are only a handfull of munisipalities that require licensing. Where he wants to do this work I am pretty sure none is required or even available. Just north of Indy in Fisher you just walk into town hall say "I need a permit for 123 ABC street to do a service upgrade." pay $75 and schedule the inspection for the time you will be done. then Duke energy comes and makes the reconnect 20 Mins later. So your term can be very missleading I know many Electricians doing great work in Indiana with no licence because there is no requirement where they are. I am in Indy where we have a SELF inspection for service changes. I tag it and that means it is inspected and IPL hooks it up. I have never failed one of my inspections yet go figure.
 
dude
whether your changing out defective dimmers or services, whether you got a license or permit, you gotta have insurance. Call you insurance man & get a Million dollar General Liability policy.
Personally, I think it might be too soon for you to do the 200a change out till your more confident in everything.
In doing your small stuff you'll eventually run across a new 200a service. Study it & copy it.
 
77401 said:
dude
whether your changing out defective dimmers or services, whether you got a license or permit, you gotta have insurance. Call you insurance man & get a Million dollar General Liability policy.
Personally, I think it might be too soon for you to do the 200a change out till your more confident in everything.
In doing your small stuff you'll eventually run across a new 200a service. Study it & copy it.
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I do agree with this also, I was just answering the post question. with out insurance you could end up with out anything.
 
I've worked on many a panelboard and even installed several in my course as maintenance electrician. We do a lot of circuit installations, upgrades and several expansions at our plant. I don't have any worries about installing it, just never had to deal with pulling permits, getting inspections, that sort of thing. I appreciate everyone's concern and input.
 
bikeindy said:
In Indiana there are only a handfull of munisipalities that require licensing. Where he wants to do this work I am pretty sure none is required or even available. Just north of Indy in Fisher you just walk into town hall say "I need a permit for 123 ABC street to do a service upgrade." pay $75 and schedule the inspection for the time you will be done. then Duke energy comes and makes the reconnect 20 Mins later. So your term can be very missleading I know many Electricians doing great work in Indiana with no licence because there is no requirement where they are. I am in Indy where we have a SELF inspection for service changes. I tag it and that means it is inspected and IPL hooks it up. I have never failed one of my inspections yet go figure.
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Just goes to show how things vary from place to place. We have statewide licensing here. If you want a permit to do a service upgrade at 123 ABC street, you need to either own and occupy the property or be a licensed electrical contractor. If it's not a single-family detached dwelling, they won't issue a permit to the owner/occupant.

So you have to get the POCO to disconnect for a service upgrade? I do the disconnect, do the upgrade, then tap the POCO's conductors. That way, the homeowner is only without power while I'm doing the upgrade. The POCO comes out eventually and makes the connection permanent (and runs a new drop, if needed), but they don't do that until they are notified that it's OK to do so. What's weird is that sometimes the inspector has to do the notification, and sometimes it's up to me. It has to be inspected by the state either way, but I self-certify services in some jurisdictions.
 
jeff43222 said:
I prefer the term "unlicensed handyman" since you generally can't be called an electrician unless you are licensed.
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That isn't always true since it's dependent on where you're working. Some states do not require anything to work as an electrician. Many simply require a license holder for the company and everyone else is unlicensed.
 
infinity said:
That isn't always true since it's dependent on where you're working. Some states do not require anything to work as an electrician. Many simply require a license holder for the company and everyone else is unlicensed.
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Glad it isn't the case here. Around these parts, not only does the company have to have its own exclusive master electrician, but the people doing electrical work for the company must be licensed (journeyman or master) or be supervised by someone who is. A license holder can only supervise two unlicensed people at a time. This makes having the license much more valuable.
 
if you want to pull a permit to do electrical work,,go to your building dept.and tell them that you"ve never pulled a permit before,and that this is all new to you,,there gonna help you!!!,trust me,,there gonna help you,,
there more that happy to help ya, if you want them to,
i'm sure there very nice people,,they wont eat you,,
dont be afraid,,were all behind you 100%
if we dont here from you again,,we'll know that they threw you into there firery bottomless pit,,
good luck,call us when you get home,,("if you ever return again")
 
jeff43222 said:
Larry's right. It's been my experience that AHJs are usually friendly toward people who want to follow the law but aren't experienced in the procedures.
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I would agree with that statement, but when you happen upon one of the unusual ones; it can be hard.
 
I agree. Take on the small stuff first. Services look good but can get really involved and require a lot of dedicated time. If the locals get upity they might throw you a monkey wrench you wont know what to do with nor have the time to figure out. Get a feel for the local AHJ before ya jump into orchestrating utility companies and inspectors around town.
 
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