Nfpa 70e

[memyselfandI]

I recently attended a seminar on Arc Flash put on by Ferraz Shawmut and I must say it was very interesting. But the thing that got my attention is the emphasis they put on NFPA 70E, especially the PPE, Type 2 fuse protection, and the enforcement from OSHA. Anyone have been to one of these and what is your opinion?

 

[realolman]

I was at one. I think they'll sell a lot of fuses. Our company swapped out all we had.

If their fuses make things safer ... good... I'm all for that.

I think working hot is pretty much unneccessary. I think wearing PPE to check and troubleshoot 480V and below is a crock. It's already too hot out there. I think having accurate drawings of systems would be a much more useful idea... you wouldn't have to root around in a panel to figure out what was likely wrong.

I think it will trend toward lower paid electricians doing work hot because now it's "safe"

I think should be wearing PPE now... because I think I can feel the blast coming. Surely, some dolt left a wrench in the top of a panel somewhere in the world.

 

[brian john]

Realman: I agree with you about working hot, but wearing PPE is critical to protecting you, forget the videos, come with me when we go to rebuild or investigate an explosion, see the level of damage and then be told the electrician might have kept his fingers, hands, feet or lived had he been wearing his PPE. There was one site where the electrician had a nylon jacket on, he might have lived had he not been sealed in melted nylon. Not all these problems were in switchgear, some are in open disconnects and panels.

Hot yes, a pain in the tushie yes, cumbersome yes, impede your work yes, worth it, IMO yes.

 

[FNCnca]

I think wearing PPE to check and troubleshoot 480V and below is a crock. It's already too hot out there.

I used to agree with you completely. The last couple of years, I have seen a lot. I work for a huge company that reports all incidents. I became aware of the number of minor incidents in 480v and below panels that actually happen. Many of these incidents could have just as easily been much more serious.
I don't have the numbers, but I believe that a vast majority of incidents take place in panels that are rated 60a. or less. Not very much current, but more than enough potential to do serious damage to a person.

I do not open an enclosure containing 480v or less, without a faceshield, gloves and a lightweight FR jacket minimum. My guys better never do it either, or they will not be doing electrical work for me anymore.

The concequences are just not worth the risk. IMHO

 

[celtic]

I think should be wearing PPE now... because I think I can feel the blast coming. Surely, some dolt left a wrench in the top of a panel somewhere in the world.

Suit up....here it comes...

I think working hot is pretty much unneccessary. I think wearing PPE to check and troubleshoot 480V and below is a crock. It's already too hot out there.

I don't think your personal comfort is more important that your life - correct me if I am wrong.
Before you begin the "correction process", you have to do one thing (in a few sub-parts):
1(A) - Watch this:
[ 13 Minute long video of the dangers of working 600v and below]

1(B) - Read this:
[Electrocution Fatality Investigation Reports]

1(C) - Call the parents, spouses and children of all the expired in the above article and explain to them that their loved were right and it was someone else's fault. Thier personal comfort is paramount in the electrical construction and maintenace industry.

I think having accurate drawings of systems would be a much more useful idea... you wouldn't have to root around in a panel to figure out what was likely wrong.

Of the millions of buildings in the US today, how many have the information you seek available?
Of those unavailable, who do you purpose foots the bill for the "accurate drawings of systems"?
Do you really think your personal comfort will trump their financial comfort?

I think it will trend toward lower paid electricians doing work hot because now it's "safe"

That's entirely possible ...but do you plan on living forever to see that doesn't happen?
Keep working "hot" w/o PPE and your plan is doomed.

 

[jim dungar]

It is not true that fuses are always better than breakers at reducing Arc Flash Incident Energy.

At low bolted fault levels fuses may not enter their current limiting region and so may be slower than breakers. At medium level fault currents breakers may operate at comparable speeds to fuses, but just because they do not limit the peak current enough UL does not consider them current limiting.

 

[realolman]

I'm not going to argue with you. I knew it would be coming from this forum. I've seen the scare tactics films.

He asked for opinions. that's mine. I've been doing it for 33 years.

I know... I'm just lucky... no skill or ability involved.

 

[iwire]

I know... I'm just lucky... no skill or ability involved.

So anyone that has been injured is simply unskilled?

 

[celtic]

I'm not going to argue with you. I knew it would be coming from this forum. I've seen the scare tactics films.

Your statement indicates otherwise as it IS argumentative.

The film is not "scare tactics".
Fact - Electricity kills
Fact - "Low voltage" injuries and deaths occur more than one would believe.

Did you even bother to view the other link?

If you want to put your head in the sand don't expect me to attend your or your employees funeral or offer any kind words to the heartbroken wives, parents, children, etc.

 

[brian john]

My business partner is a lot things, one thing he isn?t is unskilled, one of the top control guys in our area, very knowledgeable in all aspects of testing and a bit arrogant (Napoleon disease).

He spent 6 weeks in ICU, has scars to prove it, the cause of the accident was not his fault (long story). Would he have been burnt with PPE on, yes; would the damage to his body been minimized, one can only hope.

Lastly, the last site I went too where a man was burnt, they removed his hands, months later he died. The switchgear faulted while he was standing in front of it. To me a little discomfort is worth that, oh he had 20 plus years of experience. The arc blast cares nothing about experience.

 

[davidr43229]

The NFPA70E addresses Arc Flash & Shock. It currently does not address Arc Blast. Wait until NFPA adresses Arc Blast, you'll be wearing breast-plates to protect you against the 2,048 lbs/ft (weight of car), at 22,000 amps available, at 6 cycles total clearing time.
Understand even with PPE on you may still receive a 2nd degree "Just-curable" burn.
Average fines now are $130,000 by OSHA. This was the fine levied to a Contractor in Ohio for mucking up a simple voltage testing proceedure. The volt meter dropped and the test leads remained live and touched once another, as the volt meter was falling. Caused an arc and burned the 2 people badly. OSHA determined that the Contractors where not qualified or trained. This contractor closed it's Columbus office, after that.

 

[memyselfandI]

I see some people have some doubts about 70E. Some people view it as wearing a seatbelt. Sometimes it works, sometimes it don't. This is what I see is the problem in the industry. If one electrician feels that working something hot is unsafe, there is ALWAYS another one out there who is willing to take the chance. That to me is dangerous and this person has no business doing the work until they can prove that they are intelligent enough to understand the dangers of elecricity. We are all mortal. We all die at some point. Why do we have to be killed, or scarred for life, just to prove that we can disregard regulations and saftey to satisfy our own ego's. The rules are not put out there because they want you to look stupid on the job, they are put there so you can go home from that job. Deal with it, it is a small price to pay.

 

[celtic]

Every month a question is posted that stirs some heavy point/counter-point.
Soon after that question is hashed about here, I get my copy of EC&M.
Lo and behold, the topic of discussion here is also the topic of an article in EC&M:

[Streamlining the Energized Work Permit Process]
​

Coincidence???

 

[dlhoule]

Looking stupid

Looking stupid

The rules are not put out there because they want you to look stupid on the job, they are put there so you can go home from that job.

by MemyselfandI

Only you can make yourself look stupid. I agree with your statement, except I would word it a little differently.

The rules are not put out there because they want you to look stupid on the job, they are put there so stupid people can go home from that job.

Celtic that is a good article. Thanks.:smile:

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Celtic,

Every month a question is posted that stirs some heavy point/counter-point.
Soon after that question is hashed about here, I get my copy of EC&M.
Lo and behold, the topic of discussion here is also the topic of an article in EC&M:

I looked at that article, but I don't really understand, as permit or not, there are very few cases other than troubleshooting where you can work on or near energized equipment.
Don

 

[coulter]

... I don't have the numbers, but I believe that a vast majority of incidents take place in panels that are rated 60a. or less. Not very much current, but more than enough potential to do serious damage to a person. ...

FNC -

I'd really like to see some data, or even any justification on the physics behind this. In my mind, 60A panels are likely 120/240 single phase, fed with small wire. My current understanding of 70E, IEEE 1584, and arcflash physics don't justify that statement. However, I am always interested in better understanding.

carl

 

[davidr43229]

FNC & Carl,
I have thought long and hard as to how to reply to this: Remember NFPA-70E addresses Arc Flash and Shock.

Originally Posted by FNCnca
... I don't have the numbers, but I believe that a vast majority of incidents take place in panels that are rated 60a. or less. Not very much current, but more than enough potential to do serious damage to a person. ...

and:

I'd really like to see some data, or even any justification on the physics behind this

It's not so much the physics behind this at those levels, but perhaps the shock factor. I mean you don't have molten metal or an Arc Blast at these levels, but perhaps the shock, which could cause you to reflex and ultimately fall off a ladder, or drop a screw driver, or cause you to do something involuntarly causing a greater uncontrolled accident.
Just my $.02

 

[coulter]

David -

...I have thought long and hard as to how to reply to this: ...

And it's a good answer.

...It's not so much the physics behind this at those levels, but perhaps the shock factor. ...

I translated to mean "the physics behind a potential arcflash". Yes, the shock factor is a, well, factor. However, the op and most of the comments were about the arcflash. So that is what I was addressing.

QUOTE=davidr43229]... I mean you don't have molten metal or an Arc Blast at these levels, but perhaps the shock, which could cause you to reflex and ultimately fall off a ladder, or drop a screw driver, or cause you to do something involuntarly causing a greater uncontrolled accident.
Just my $.02[/QUOTE]

True, and as I alluded to earlier, we got good value for your money. It's a good comment.

carl

 

[celtic]

Celtic,

I looked at that article, ....

Don,
It was just an observation....every month a topic related to an article in EC&M appears here - I read the post, a few days later EC&M arrives at my door.

 

[FNCnca]

FNC & Carl,
I have thought long and hard as to how to reply to this: Remember NFPA-70E addresses Arc Flash and Shock.

and:


It's not so much the physics behind this at those levels, but perhaps the shock factor. I mean you don't have molten metal or an Arc Blast at these levels, but perhaps the shock, which could cause you to reflex and ultimately fall off a ladder, or drop a screw driver, or cause you to do something involuntarly causing a greater uncontrolled accident.
Just my $.02

I did not make myself clear in the way I posted before. I am not saying that the greatest damage is being done in the low level panels. It is ( I believe ) just happening a whole lot more. It is the exposure levels, techs are in them more often. With the perceived lack of dangers, from these "low levels" of current and voltage, people seem, to take more chances, with their personal safety.

That being said, I helped do an arc flash analysis at another facility in this company. We found a common, ordinary 30a 480v disconnect, that because of very bad coridination, required a PPE level 3 . It calculated to 24 cal/cm2 as I recall. So big dangerous levels do show up every now and then.