Nfpa 70e

[smithacetech]

NFPA 70E
IMO this should be included in the NEC. That way people are more likely to follow it. I know of alot of people who dont even know this exists.:-?
I dont know about other states, but here in Utah it seems to be a "new" concept that is just barely catching on & usually only at the large commercial or industrial job sites.
Its sad but true that money seems to control everything in our society. But the cost of a life or injury far exceeds the cost of proper saftey procedures & PPE. So when someone says we cant shut this circuit off ask them this. What gonna costs more money? Proper PPE & the time to follow safe hot work procedures or the cost of OSHA fines & million dollar lawsuits in the event of a preventable incident, not to mention insurance rate increases, or being shut down for safety investigations....(I have yet to find someone choose the later.)

Now one can argue is 70E actually protection for big companies from being sued & covering there liability's or is it really for the worker?
The reason I ask this is have you actually put on all the proper PPE, (say class 4) & tried to work? At times it can be more of a hinderance & actually cause an accident due to loss of dexterity! After all, hot work has been done for years & that is what we are trained for...

Either way you should use it to your advantage, because your safety should be the most important not money. What good is making a profit if your dead?
I think 70E is a good thing that we just need to make work for everyone involved. Yes it is a protection of sort for companies but mostly for you. We are just gonna have to learn how to properly work while wearing PPE & include the cost of PPE in our estimates in order to maintain a profit.

sorry for the long post, but What do you all think?

 

[iwire]

Proper PPE & the time to follow safe hot work procedures or the cost of OSHA fines & million dollar lawsuits in the event of a preventable incident,..............................


What do you all think?

That per OSHA there are very few times where PPE makes any difference, OSHA rarely allows electricians to work hot.

Troubleshooting or when shutting down creates more of a hazard then not shutting down.

The amount of Money a shutdown will cost is not a factor as far as OSHA is concerned.

 

[smithacetech]

I understand OSHA's guidelines, Im just curious if anyone out there has a 70E program they use & what they have experienced with 70E so far.

 

[jim dungar]

NFPA 70E
IMO this should be included in the NEC.

IMO, the NEC should only deal with building wiring and infrastructure installations (they should get rid of any reference to anything that "plugs" in)

NPFA70E is about personel safety is always applicable.

I am amazed at the number of people that always point to HRC 4 clothing as an example of PPE being difficult to work in and conclude NFPA70E is impracticle. In all the studies I have seen the typical facility only has HRC 4 at the service entrance and on the 480 secondaries of >300KVA transformers. When deciding upon mitigation most owners decide these few areas are to be never worked on while energized.

 

[iwire]

I understand OSHA's guidelines, Im just curious if anyone out there has a 70E program they use & what they have experienced with 70E so far.

I have experienced a couple of things.

1) I find that many places simply assume any live work requires a full 'moon suit'

2) That many places assume that any live work is OK as long as you have the moon suit on.

 

[coulter]

...When deciding upon mitigation most owners decide these few areas are to be never worked on while energized.

I definitely agree that hot work is rarely necesary. However, my interpretation of 70E is the dead bus verification is considered live work. It's not dead until you test it dead. So just opening up a cabinet and testing for dead bus requires the PPE as though the bus were hot.

I'm not questioning anybody's thinking, just requesting a sanity check on my thinking.

carl

 

[jim dungar]

I definitely agree that hot work is rarely necesary. However, my interpretation of 70E is the dead bus verification is considered live work. It's not dead until you test it dead. So just opening up a cabinet and testing for dead bus requires the PPE as though the bus were hot.

I'm not questioning anybody's thinking, just requesting a sanity check on my thinking.

carl

Yes, absolutely voltage verification requires the correct arc flash and voltage rated PPE. But voltage testing does not require a high degree of dexterity when being done with a non-contact detector (we use ones that mount on hot sticks), so the time spent in a "moon suit" is minimal.

 

[davidr43229]

Amen Jim Dungar!
NFPA-70E started in Ohio and is spreading to other states, as the OSHA compliance officers are being educated and fines being tested in various states.. Typical fines now are $100,000+ to employers. I myself have seen 3 such fines in Ohio.
I am finding Industrial & Commercials varied. I mean to say they either go overboard or not enough to the "Intent' of the NFPA-70E. While others have preformed the anaylsis and printed the labels and seem to impliment this well. Colgate, Honda GM , Delphi and The Limited to name a few.
I am also finding safety officers of "some" companies barely can spell S A F E T Y, let alone impliment the NFPA-70E.
Owens Corning has had their 6th offense, yet their Safety department is comitted to Safety (laughs). So these companies are all over the board.
AK Steel, people die there every year.

I understand OSHA's guidelines, Im just curious if anyone out there has a 70E program they use & what they have experienced with 70E so far.

There are many companies out there that teach, train & certify, NTT, OSHA, Square D, Rockwell, Ferraz & Bussmann to name a few. I can tell you that for every dollar an employer invests, they regain $10 on this investment.

So just opening up a cabinet and testing for dead bus requires the PPE as though the bus were hot.

Ever see a wiggie blow up in someones hand ?
Joe Tedesco and I have pictures of this.
A typical civil law suit now is yielding $14,000,000.00 against employers, by employees.
Up until 1985 even OSHA didn't have a good Electrical Employee standard. It only said that the worker must be adaquately protected.....but to what extend, to what degree? The NFPA-70E(origionally authored in 1985) came as a breathe of fresh air, which OSHA adopted chapter, by chapter by chapter and now sites this document as a "stand-alone" document, rather that as an abatement to a 1910.XXX general duty clause. This is one of the 1st documents that charge Employers and Employees with direct Electrical Safety responsability.

I am amazed at the number of people that always point to HRC 4 clothing as an example of PPE being difficult to work in and conclude NFPA70E is impracticle

In my experience I have seen some Companies "sub" out this type of work and only do level 2 and below.
Just my $.02
edited to comment on the HRC 4

 

[zog]

"NFPA-70E started in Ohio and is spreading to other states"

How did a national standard start in any state?

"There are many companies out there that teach, train & certify,"

There is no such thing as a certification for 70E.

"The NFPA-70E(origionally authored in 1985) came as a breathe of fresh air"

1979 was the 1st version and was the basis for the 1981 OSHA 1910 "Final rule"


Doing 70E training across North America I would estimate that about 50% of inductrial facillities believe they are 70E compliant, only about 20% actually are. Electrical contractors, about 80% of them think they are in compliance, only about 10% of them are.

 

[hockeyoligist2]

I work industrial (sewer) and we had a 4 hour seminar on Arc Flash and NFPA-70E last week. Our safety officer is really gung-ho about it now. After the seminar, the safety officer sent out a memo, "no operator is allowed to reset a breaker." So now, middle of the night, a power blip, lightning, whatever, the operator has to call the on-call electrician to come reset a breaker even 120v! I think I'll probably have to put on a moon suit to reset a breaker soon!

 

[dlhoule]

"NFPA-70E started in Ohio and is spreading to other states"

How did a national standard start in any state?

"There are many companies out there that teach, train & certify,"

There is no such thing as a certification for 70E.

"The NFPA-70E(origionally authored in 1985) came as a breathe of fresh air"

1979 was the 1st version and was the basis for the 1981 OSHA 1910 "Final rule"


Doing 70E training across North America I would estimate that about 50% of inductrial facillities believe they are 70E compliant, only about 20% actually are. Electrical contractors, about 80% of them think they are in compliance, only about 10% of them are.

I am curious. Just how did you go about getting your estimates. I'm not disagreeing, because I don't have any idea what they would be. In terms of being 70E compliant. If a company gives lip service but are willing to look the other way when it serves their purpose, are they compliant? They have the labeling in place, provide the proper training; strictly enforce it most of the time, but when it is going to cost them a fair amount of money to comply, they will simply look the other way. BTW, I also think that around here close to 50% of the contractors are not even aware of that fine document (70E).

Edited to add last sentence.

 

[davidr43229]

NFPA-70E started in Ohio and is spreading to other states"
How did a national standard start in any state?

News Release from National Fire Protection Association - NFPA
09/27/2002
Landmark Agreement to Use NFPA 70E to Protect Electricians
Quincy, MA, September 27, 2002--Unionized electricians, contractors and federal regulators in Columbus, Ohio have forged
a landmark agreement to protect electrical workers on the job by using a safety standard from National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) Landmark OSHA Agreement on NFPA70E National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) Standard 70E, "Electrical Safety Requirements for Employee Workplaces" is a primary source document used in development
of US OSHA electrical safety regulations. While the NFPA70E standard is revised every three years, OSHA has not updated electrical safety regulations for general industry since 1990. In a pilot program to apply state of the art NFPA70E requirements without having to rewrite federal regulations, OSHA has announced a landmark agreement to enforce NFPA70E in a pilot program in the Columbus, Ohio region to demonstrate the effectiveness of the detailed and specific requirements provided by NFPA70E.

There is no such thing as a certification for 70E

The NFPA 70E specifically states that the worker shall be qualified, certified and trained by the employeers' self authored Electrical Safety Program. The NFPA-70E is used as an example to help Companies Certify their employees.
Many companies programs such as NTT, Square D, Ferraz, Rockwell & Bussmann have training material to help the employeer Certify their employees.

"no operator is allowed to reset a breaker."

Your Safety Officer was following the OSHA 1910.334 standard, which is correct.
Just my $.02

 

[mattsilkwood]

our company is in the process of purchasing 3 "moon suits" i was wondering what they are like to work in? they look pretty bad imo. also i was under the impresion that any time you opened a panel that you had to wear the arc flash clothing , or are companies allowed to set their own standard?
just asking some questions because its just starting to hit in my area and i honestly dont know that much about it.

 

[davidr43229]

our company is in the process of purchasing 3 "moon suits" i was wondering what they are like to work in? they look pretty bad imo. also i was under the impresion that any time you opened a panel that you had to wear the arc flash clothing , or are companies allowed to set their own standard

http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/NEC-HTML/HTML/What-is-Arc-Flash~20040512.php and scroll about 1/2 way down for a picture, or try this link.
http://www.labsafety.com/store/Safe...ame-Resistant_Clothing/53249/?noredirect=true
You are only required to wear the PPE, if power is on, or if you are verifying voltage is off.
Companies are allowed to set their own standards, as long as they do not drop below the clothing standard of the NFPA-70E, or said a different way, Companies may allow more PPE per task or Level, but not less PPE (clothing).
Just my $.02

 

[FNCnca]

also i was under the impresion that any time you opened a panel that you had to wear the arc flash clothing

You do, however that does not automatically mean the "moon suit". After doing an arc flash analysis, most find that your daily wear, plus gloves and a face shield is all that is required.

I wear level 2 rated clothing on a daily basis, it is my provided uniform. Only a couple of time a year do I have to wear the "moon suit". When I do wear it, I get in, power down, voltage check, apply grounds, and get out of it as fast as I can. No need to spend any more time wearing the "suit" than needed.

People who are just now learning of 70E, are being frightened of what they do not know, only by what they hear from others. It is really not that hard to deal with. Unless you are working in a really unsafe manner now, 70E won't change the way you do things a whole lot.

 

[mattsilkwood]

thanks for the info guys. like i said we are still in the learning phase right now any knowledge is helpfull.
also we are only required to wear the suit when we are in switch gear.

 

[zog]

"The NFPA 70E specifically states that the worker shall be qualified, certified and trained by the employeers' self authored Electrical Safety Program"

Please provide the article where the 70E says this. There is no such thing as a certification for the 70E. Trained and qualified yes, certified, no.

 

[davidr43229]

Zog,

1. NFPA 70E TRAINING CLASS
A 1-Day Electrical Safety Seminar
for OSHA Electrical Safety and NFPA 70E ? Certification
http://www.electricaltrainingusa.com/electrical_safety.html
2. OSHA Electric Safety Certification
http://www.unitedelectric.com/Train/Training/electric_safety.htm
3. I thought the wording of this OSHA document to be very interesting.
OSHA Part 1910.132(d)(2) ? ?The employer shall verify that the required workplace hazard assessment has been performed through a written certification that identifies the workplace evaluated; ; the person certifying that the evaluation has been performed; the date(s) of the hazard assessment; and, which identifies the document as a certification of hazard assessment.?
http://www.pdadesign.com/ArcFlash/ArcFlash_References.htm
Even within an OSHA document it calls out for Certification. You may want to re-evaluate your stance on this issue.
Just my $.02

 

[zog]

That certification you quoted from OSHA has nothing to do with training, it is a hazard assesment.

This is not my stance, I work closely with the 70E commitee and OSHA and we have had this discussion many times prompted by some of these companies that are offering a 70E certification. There is no such thing, I dont think you understand what certifacation means.

You said it specifically states in the 70E that the employee must be certified, I am still waiting for that article where it specifically states this.