nfpa70e

[billsnuff]

has any used or seen these in use. what is your opinion?

http://www.grace-eng.com/VoltageVision/DS-R-3W.shtml

http://www.grace-eng.com/DS/DS-GraceTips/Ds-GraceTips1.shtml

 

[zog]

Dont see the point, from the FAQ's

5.) What if the R-3W fails?

Safety procedures still apply. Personnel must still verify isolation with a meter before performing maintenance. If you chose to use the R-3W as part of your safety procedure for lock-out/tag-out, then you must have personnel verify that the R-3W is flashing properly every time the isolator is operated. This is the same procedure an electrician uses to insure that his meter is functioning.

 

[billsnuff]

more to the point

more to the point

We have 13 machines with VS Drives and 3ph motor control and CRs for control circuits. While this device does not relieve you from using your meter L-D-L test. If this device is used according to manuf instructions, isn't that cabinet 'dead' before you open it, thereby relieving you from donning a higher level (coveralls and hard hat w/shield) of arc flash gear, hence, saving time. Arc Flash study is complete and corrective action under way. This is a fast paced manuf environment where down time is at a premium.

Each cabinet has its own disco (e-3) with (e-1) at the machine and (e-2) mounted on the outside of the cabinet. The cabinet is remote from the machine. We would attach the device to the line side of (e-3).

 

[zog]

We have 13 machines with VS Drives and 3ph motor control and CRs for control circuits. While this device does not relieve you from using your meter L-D-L test. If this device is used according to manuf instructions, isn't that cabinet 'dead' before you open it, thereby relieving you from donning a higher level (coveralls and hard hat w/shield) of arc flash gear, hence, saving time. Arc Flash study is complete and corrective action under way. This is a fast paced manuf environment where down time is at a premium.

Each cabinet has its own disco (e-3) with (e-1) at the machine and (e-2) mounted on the outside of the cabinet. The cabinet is remote from the machine. We would attach the device to the line side of (e-3).

Again, dont see the point, if you are going into the cabinet for some reason you still need to do a L-D-L check. You also still need arc flash PPE to operate the switch or breaker to isolate, I dont see how this is anything more than a cool flashy thing looking to cash in on the 70E SWP trend.

Until this type of device is recognized in 70E or OSHA you are not relieved from any requirements, I will have to back and check but I think thee was something about a device like this in the 2009 ROP's that was shot down by the commitee.

 

[billsnuff]

zog

zog

thanks for the reply. the literature (written to sell stuff) had me thinking that it qualified as a volt meter, allowing you to enter the cabinet to ck L-D-L, knowing that the panel is already DEAD and wearing PPE for <1.2 cal/cm2.

I just want to be sure i don't put someone in harms way. thanks again.

 

[zog]

Why do your guys need to go in these panels so often?

 

[jdsmith]

Why do your guys need to go in these panels so often?

In some instances if the cost to verify voltage with a meter was high enough it would be worth installing these. In my case at work:

1) Mechanic and process operator locate piece of equipment to work on.

2) Both individuals locate the source and place their locks on it. This can be time consuming in itself until we implement a new labeling system I'm working on now.

3) A call is placed to the plant electricians to put a verification lock on the equipment - this indicates that an electrician has tested voltage with a meter.

4) Electrician meets operator and mechanic at equipment and gets into blast suit.

5) Process operator uses sniffer to verify no combustible gases are present at the time and explosionproof enclosure can be opened and power tool can be used.

6) Electrician uses cordless impact to open ~30 bolts on enclosure.

7) Electrician verifies no voltage on line side of disconnect.

8) Electrician closes starter/disconnect and retightens all bolts.

9) Electrician places red lock with white stripe on disconnect to indicate voltage has been checked.

10) Electrician removes blast suit and is finished.

11) Process operator and mechanic check box on work permit that electrical verification has been done and work can begin.

I'm not sure if our procedure calls for a check at the motor itself or not but I believe it is supposed to be done also.

I would imagine that if you add up the additional labor costs for the electrician to be in a blast suit and get into and out of an explosionproof starter, as well as for two other people to watch him do this that such a device could be worthwhile if it would meet the verification requirement. I would at least be doing calculations to see if it was worthwhile to spec them on a new unit or new substation. All of our newer starters are indoors in general purpose areas so it might not be intelligent there, but maybe on outdoor starters that we expect to be in service for a number of years yet. This all assumes of course that this little light comes in a Class 1 Div 2 version.

 

[zog]

In some instances if the cost to verify voltage with a meter was high enough it would be worth installing these. In my case at work:

1) Mechanic and process operator locate piece of equipment to work on.

2) Both individuals locate the source and place their locks on it. This can be time consuming in itself until we implement a new labeling system I'm working on now.

3) A call is placed to the plant electricians to put a verification lock on the equipment - this indicates that an electrician has tested voltage with a meter.

4) Electrician meets operator and mechanic at equipment and gets into blast suit.

5) Process operator uses sniffer to verify no combustible gases are present at the time and explosionproof enclosure can be opened and power tool can be used.

6) Electrician uses cordless impact to open ~30 bolts on enclosure.

7) Electrician verifies no voltage on line side of disconnect.

8) Electrician closes starter/disconnect and retightens all bolts.

9) Electrician places red lock with white stripe on disconnect to indicate voltage has been checked.

10) Electrician removes blast suit and is finished.

11) Process operator and mechanic check box on work permit that electrical verification has been done and work can begin.

I'm not sure if our procedure calls for a check at the motor itself or not but I believe it is supposed to be done also.

I would imagine that if you add up the additional labor costs for the electrician to be in a blast suit and get into and out of an explosionproof starter, as well as for two other people to watch him do this that such a device could be worthwhile if it would meet the verification requirement. I would at least be doing calculations to see if it was worthwhile to spec them on a new unit or new substation. All of our newer starters are indoors in general purpose areas so it might not be intelligent there, but maybe on outdoor starters that we expect to be in service for a number of years yet. This all assumes of course that this little light comes in a Class 1 Div 2 version.

First off, even with this light you still need to suit up and verify the equipment is dead, says right there in the directions of the flashy thing, you dont save any time.

Second, Blast suit? On a starter? That seem a little overkill, you using the tables or analysis, what equations were used? Something is not right there.

Third, if the work is done at the motor, why open the starter and check the motor, twice as much work.

Believe me, I know how difficult ESWP's can be in a large industrial plant with several trades and a safety dept that know nothing about electrical systems, make it a union plant and it is even tougher.