joe tedesco
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, Massachusetts
But .... shouldn't expansion fittings have been installed here?
See 300.5(J)
See 300.5(J)
Nice Job! Electrical Service Equipment Installed
- Thread starter joe tedesco
- Start date
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txsparky
Member
- Location
- Conroe, Texas
Re: Nice Job! Electrical Service Equipment Installed
IMO, that would be a call by the AHJ based on the climate and soil conditions of the area in which the service is built. I have never seen an expansion coupling on an underground service in the area in which I work.(Houston and surrounding counties)
Re: Nice Job! Electrical Service Equipment Installed
Joe I dont follow why you would need expansion fittings here.According to table 352.44(a) I think it means 100 ft or more. And once in ground
I dont see where it would apply. Is this pipe complete to transformer or is it just a sleeve and
direct burial used ? Cant really make out the picture to well. p.s. How come he didnt line up the meters on right?
Joe I dont follow why you would need expansion fittings here.According to table 352.44(a) I think it means 100 ft or more. And once in ground
I dont see where it would apply. Is this pipe complete to transformer or is it just a sleeve and
direct burial used ? Cant really make out the picture to well. p.s. How come he didnt line up the meters on right?
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Nice Job! Electrical Service Equipment Installed
wrestless, Take a look at 300.5(J)
wrestless, Take a look at 300.5(J)
Re: Nice Job! Electrical Service Equipment Installed
Are the two large boxes tap boxes or disconnects (it seems like they would have to be disconnects to meet the 6 disconnect rule).
Steve
I was wondering the same thing. I would guess the meters on the right are an original service, and the meters on the left are an addition. (guessing by the colors of the labels and wireways).
Are the two large boxes tap boxes or disconnects (it seems like they would have to be disconnects to meet the 6 disconnect rule).
Steve
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: Nice Job! Electrical Service Equipment Installed
Joe has a hard time deciding in which forum to ask questions so he asks them in both.
The verticle sections next to the main junction cabinet (it has horizontal bus bars mounted inside) are not required to be raintight or rainproof. Only the horizontal sections are required to be NEMA 3R rated for the service entrance conductors. This is by agreement between IPL and the city of Indianapolis. The PVC under the junction cabinet are placed acording to IPL specifications for IPL cables. The remaining portions are between the EC and the AHJ.
Joe has a hard time deciding in which forum to ask questions so he asks them in both.
The verticle sections next to the main junction cabinet (it has horizontal bus bars mounted inside) are not required to be raintight or rainproof. Only the horizontal sections are required to be NEMA 3R rated for the service entrance conductors. This is by agreement between IPL and the city of Indianapolis. The PVC under the junction cabinet are placed acording to IPL specifications for IPL cables. The remaining portions are between the EC and the AHJ.
joe tedesco
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, Massachusetts
Re: Nice Job! Electrical Service Equipment Installed
But does this installation meet the NEC rules?
joe tedesco
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, Massachusetts
Re: Nice Job! Electrical Service Equipment Installed
What does this mean??
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: Nice Job! Electrical Service Equipment Installed
Joe, because it doesn't meet the NEC in total, IPL has met with the city of Indianapolis to get their approval. As far as your second question, that means that we are not the inspectors. The interpretation of the NEC rests with the AHJ. Therefore, "The remaining portions are between the EC and the AHJ."
You can go into any city an pick things apart as you obviously do. That still does not make them wrong since you are an outsider. Section 90-4 is amended in Indiana to read as follows: Requirements covering enforcement, granting of variances, and approval of alternate methods or materials are covered in Indiana statutes and 675 IAC 12, the General Administrative Rules of the Commission.
Sorry Joe, we can do anything we want as long as we (the state of Indiana, the city of Indianapolis, and the entity doing the work) all agree that it is safe.
Joe, because it doesn't meet the NEC in total, IPL has met with the city of Indianapolis to get their approval. As far as your second question, that means that we are not the inspectors. The interpretation of the NEC rests with the AHJ. Therefore, "The remaining portions are between the EC and the AHJ."
You can go into any city an pick things apart as you obviously do. That still does not make them wrong since you are an outsider. Section 90-4 is amended in Indiana to read as follows: Requirements covering enforcement, granting of variances, and approval of alternate methods or materials are covered in Indiana statutes and 675 IAC 12, the General Administrative Rules of the Commission.
Sorry Joe, we can do anything we want as long as we (the state of Indiana, the city of Indianapolis, and the entity doing the work) all agree that it is safe.
joe tedesco
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, Massachusetts
Re: Nice Job! Electrical Service Equipment Installed
Thank you! What other arrangements have been made in your area between the City and the AHJ so as to keep the costs down?
As an EEI member, didn't I read somewhere where you said that cost had a lot to do with the way in which the code is enforced, and addressed when it comes to utilities and the members of EEI.
Yes, you got that right, I do and I have traveled through many cites on more than one occasion for a very long time, and yes I do look for electrical code violations!
Many people get a laugh from some of them and others use them to teach people about the hazards associated with electricity, even some of the NEC Chairmen call upon me for help when they need some images.
I see the same problems and hazards in many areas around the USA!
Just goes to show you that the almighty dollar paves the way most of the time, and keeps its fingers crossed, or maybe crosses the neutral many, many times, eh $$$
Charlie:Originally posted by charlie:
Joe, because it doesn't meet the NEC in total, IPL has met with the city of Indianapolis to get their approval. As far as your second question, that means that we are not the inspectors. The interpretation of the NEC rests with the AHJ. Therefore, "The remaining portions are between the EC and the AHJ."
You can go into any city an pick things apart as you obviously do. That still does not make them wrong since you are an outsider. Section 90-4 is amended in Indiana to read as follows: Requirements covering enforcement, granting of variances, and approval of alternate methods or materials are covered in Indiana statutes and 675 IAC 12, the General Administrative Rules of the Commission.
Sorry Joe, we can do anything we want as long as we (the state of Indiana, the city of Indianapolis, and the entity doing the work) all agree that it is safe.
Thank you! What other arrangements have been made in your area between the City and the AHJ so as to keep the costs down?
As an EEI member, didn't I read somewhere where you said that cost had a lot to do with the way in which the code is enforced, and addressed when it comes to utilities and the members of EEI.
Yes, you got that right, I do and I have traveled through many cites on more than one occasion for a very long time, and yes I do look for electrical code violations!
Many people get a laugh from some of them and others use them to teach people about the hazards associated with electricity, even some of the NEC Chairmen call upon me for help when they need some images.
I see the same problems and hazards in many areas around the USA!
Just goes to show you that the almighty dollar paves the way most of the time, and keeps its fingers crossed, or maybe crosses the neutral many, many times, eh $$$
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Occupation
- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
Re: Nice Job! Electrical Service Equipment Installed
There is nothing that is not dictated by "The all mighty dollar" in some way. That's the nature of our capatalist society. Take our electrical "Bible" for instance. Do we really need a revision every three years. I bet the printers, NFPA, manufacturers, code instructors, etc. would answer that with s great big YE$$$$!
There is nothing that is not dictated by "The all mighty dollar" in some way. That's the nature of our capatalist society. Take our electrical "Bible" for instance. Do we really need a revision every three years. I bet the printers, NFPA, manufacturers, code instructors, etc. would answer that with s great big YE$$$$!
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: Nice Job! Electrical Service Equipment Installed
Joe, I sometimes feel like arguing with you is like fighting with a skunk. You might win the fight but you end up stinking for a while. (no insult intended)
The purpose of EEI is to hold costs down for our customers without compromising safety. We are doing a pretty good job of that. We are working within the system to provide good service while doing it safely. You have provided a photo of a really bad installation in Indianapolis that is dangerous beyond belief and violates the NEC. The reality is that this is a good installation that has been accepted by the AHJ, not you.
You talk about us saving a lot of money by cutting costs. That junction cabinet is approximately $1500 and there are two of them. the reason is to keep the old style junction box out of the picture. This one has bus bars in it so we can bring in 1600 amperes of service and we can connect and disconnect the individual services easily without having a big and dangerous tangle of wires.
BTW, IPL furnishes the junction cabinet and meter fittings at no cost to the customer. So much for chasing the almighty dollar. :roll:
[ June 02, 2004, 06:51 AM: Message edited by: charlie ]
Joe, I sometimes feel like arguing with you is like fighting with a skunk. You might win the fight but you end up stinking for a while. (no insult intended)
The purpose of EEI is to hold costs down for our customers without compromising safety. We are doing a pretty good job of that. We are working within the system to provide good service while doing it safely. You have provided a photo of a really bad installation in Indianapolis that is dangerous beyond belief and violates the NEC. The reality is that this is a good installation that has been accepted by the AHJ, not you.
You talk about us saving a lot of money by cutting costs. That junction cabinet is approximately $1500 and there are two of them. the reason is to keep the old style junction box out of the picture. This one has bus bars in it so we can bring in 1600 amperes of service and we can connect and disconnect the individual services easily without having a big and dangerous tangle of wires.
BTW, IPL furnishes the junction cabinet and meter fittings at no cost to the customer. So much for chasing the almighty dollar. :roll:
[ June 02, 2004, 06:51 AM: Message edited by: charlie ]
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: Nice Job! Electrical Service Equipment Installed
I think when cost prohibits the right way of doing things then things will get done the wrong way no matter what we say.
I think when cost prohibits the right way of doing things then things will get done the wrong way no matter what we say.
joe tedesco
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, Massachusetts
Re: Nice Job! Electrical Service Equipment Installed
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: Nice Job! Electrical Service Equipment Installed
Looks like a 208/120 drop to three lightning arresters to four service entrance risers. The bare conductors are the MGN ties for the lightning arresters.
Other than that it looks like a mess using C crimp taps.
Looks like a 208/120 drop to three lightning arresters to four service entrance risers. The bare conductors are the MGN ties for the lightning arresters.
Other than that it looks like a mess using C crimp taps.
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: Nice Job! Electrical Service Equipment Installed
Joe, would you like to try to pick apart every installation that is made? It is difficult to tell if enough clearance from the roof has been achieved but the rest of it looks like it meets Code. The phase wires are isolated from the rack with 12" fiberglass insulators on the R/H side, there may be 18" (since you are shooting from the ground, you can't tell) of clearance from the phase wires to the facade, some of the phase wires are going through the CTs and some are individually metered which indicates more than one customer. What you have is a sloppy looking installation which is why we will not permit more than four connections per phase.
It looks like you are doing your best to put EEI down as an organization, IPL down as a company, and me down personally. You have shown two installations that have been inspected and passed by the AHJ. Again, that is not you.
Joe, would you like to try to pick apart every installation that is made? It is difficult to tell if enough clearance from the roof has been achieved but the rest of it looks like it meets Code. The phase wires are isolated from the rack with 12" fiberglass insulators on the R/H side, there may be 18" (since you are shooting from the ground, you can't tell) of clearance from the phase wires to the facade, some of the phase wires are going through the CTs and some are individually metered which indicates more than one customer. What you have is a sloppy looking installation which is why we will not permit more than four connections per phase.
It looks like you are doing your best to put EEI down as an organization, IPL down as a company, and me down personally. You have shown two installations that have been inspected and passed by the AHJ. Again, that is not you.
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