NM Cable Insulation

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goldstar

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I know this sounds like a basic question and something I should already know but did we ever determine here in the Forum what the actual individual wire insulation is in 14/2 thru 10/2 NM sheathed cable ? It is not imprinted on the sheath and I couldn't find the answer in the archives. I'm guessing it's TW. Both TW and UF are shown in the 60 degree column on 310.15(B)(16).

Sorry for the ignorance.:roll:
 
It really doesn't matter what insulation it is because if it isn't marked then it cannot be used outside the nm cable. It is 90C rated tho.
 
It really doesn't matter what insulation it is because if it isn't marked then it cannot be used outside the nm cable. It is 90C rated tho.
I don't think it is because if you hold a piece of THHN next to a NM conductor you'll see that the THHN has a shiny thermo-plastic coating on it. However, if you are correct does that mean I can use 14/2 for a 25 amp circuit according to 310.15(B)(16)?
 
I don't think it is because if you hold a piece of THHN next to a NM conductor you'll see that the THHN has a shiny thermo-plastic coating on it. However, if you are correct does that mean I can use 14/2 for a 25 amp circuit according to 310.15(B)(16)?

No because nm is rated 60C even though the insulation is rated 90C.. 334.80
 
Here is the information from UL 719 for those who would like to see it.

4.4 Insulation


4.4.1 Both before and after assembly into finished cable, the insulation employed on the circuit
conductors shall comply with (a) or (b):


a) THHN Construction – Jacketed insulation for a Type NM or NMC cable shall have a nylon or
similar jacket and shall comply with the thickness and other applicable requirements for Type
THHN thermoplastic-insulated wire without (see 6.2.4) any surface marking of "THHN", "-B", or
any ampacity or temperature rating.


b) TW Construction – Insulation without a nylon jacket shall comply with the thickness
requirements for a Type TW thermoplastic-insulated wire. The insulation material shall comply
with (1) or (2):


1) For TYPE NM or Type NMC Cable – The insulation material shall be a dry-locations
PVC that complies with the requirements for Type THHN insulation without any surface
marking of the ampacity or temperature rating (the surface marking "-B" is optional on
the insulation). The tensile strength and elongation are to comply with the “Physical
properties of PVC insulation from Type TFN and TFFN fixture wires" Table in UL 1581.
The deformation test is to be conducted at 121.0 ±1.0°C (249.8±1.8°F) with a decrease
of not more than 50 percent in the thickness of the PVC insulation.


2) For TYPE NM only – Type NM is eligible to use a thermoplastic insulating material
other than PVC. The performance and ratings of the material as insulation shall be
determined by investigation and shall be:


i) Electrically comparable to the PVC insulation in Type THHN wire, and


ii) Mechanically comparable to the nylon or similarly jacketed PVC insulation of
Type THHN wire, and


iii) In accordance with “Physical properties of insulation of thermoplastic other
than PVC from Type NM cables” Table in UL 1581.

4.4.2 The grounding conductor shall be bare or shall be insulated (with or without a nylon jacket) in
compliance with 4.4.1 and 4.6.3.


4.4.3 An insulation or jacket that is of material generically different from any insulation or jacket material
specified in 4.4.1 or 4.7.1 for the construction (new material), or that is of material specified in 4.4.1 or
4.7.1 yet does not comply with the short-term tests applicable to the insulation or jacket material, shall be
of a material and in thicknesses and with the temperature rating required for the specific
nonmetallic-sheathed cable type. The material shall be evaluated for the requested temperature rating as
described in the "Long-Term Aging", Section of the Reference Standard for Electrical Wires, Cables, and
Flexible Cords, UL 1581. Investigation of the electrical, mechanical, and physical characteristics of the
cable using the material shall show the material to be comparable in performance to the insulation or
jacket material specified in 4.4.1 or 4.7.1 for the required temperature rating. The investigation shall
include tests such as crushing, impact, abrasion, deformation, heat shock, insulation resistance, and
dielectric voltage-withstand.

Important to note : It would not be TW..it would meet the construction of TW and not need the nylon if it meets all the other test requirements found in the rule. Keeping in mind that even when THHN/THWN-2 is being tested on those variables it doesn't have the nylon on the sample.
 
I don't think it is because if you hold a piece of THHN next to a NM conductor you'll see that the THHN has a shiny thermo-plastic coating on it. However, if you are correct does that mean I can use 14/2 for a 25 amp circuit according to 310.15(B)(16)?

shiny last plastic coating, perhaps thwn-2 ??
 
So, with that being said, the only wiring shown in the 60 degree column is TW and UF. Why then wouldn’t be considered TW?

Because, as Dennis points out 334.80 gives the ampacity.

MasterTheNEC has given the listing specifics.

As a side note, the "shiny thermo plastic" covering does does not add to the insulation value of THHN/THWN and it is removed during testing if I remember correctly.

Roger
 
As a side note, the "shiny thermo plastic" covering does does not add to the insulation value of THHN/THWN and it is removed during testing if I remember correctly.

Roger
?
An insulator (plastic) does not add to the insulation value. It should. If it doesn't during testing that what you get is something better than the test value.

Note what they say for THWN-2
Nylon jacket over reduced insulation thickness

https://www.southwire.com/support/BldgWaCDesig.htm
 
?
An insulator (plastic) does not add to the insulation value. It should. If it doesn't during testing that what you get is something better than the test value.

Note what they say for THWN-2


https://www.southwire.com/support/BldgWaCDesig.htm

And note what Dave Mercier from Southwire has to say about it.

Excerpt from an old IAEI meeting;


When Gil visited us previously, he made a splash by noting that the transparent nylon covering THHN/THWN, while arguably making them sexy compared to THW, is not required to maintain the conductor's dielectric properties. Therefore, if in the course of installation the nylon suffers the odd nick, or unsightly run, or even is scraped off, the conductor is fine so long as the insulation underneath remains intact. Learning this much, we had to have Dave over for more of the story.

Unless conductors are exposed to gasoline or oil, or submerged for an extended period we're talking many months--the nylon covering offers strictly a mechanical protection, Dave explained, with the underlying PVC supplying the dielectric properties as Gil had told us. The nylon actually is stripped away for the UL acceptance test. Therefore, if the nylon is scraped off, but the plastic underneath is intact, an appropriate response usually is "Good; it's done its job," and a green tag.

It's not just the nylon covering on THHN/THWN, we learned, but the sheaths on cable assemblies also often are optional. A cable installer nicked the sheath of a nonmetallic cable installed in a dry indoor location, and responded in a curious way: he turned the cable so the nick faced toward the wall. Not a bad response, Dave opined (while not wholeheartedly endorsing); this way, people glancing at it in passing wouldn't be unnecessarily concerned.
You may detect from this that Dave is quite an engaging speaker; moreover he's one with 19 years' product and Code experience under his belt to give plenty of clout to the information.

Damage is not necessarily limited solely to cable sheaths, of course. If a cable appears damaged, Dave recommends cutting a window in the sheath so you can examine the conductor insulation beneath. If that's good, you can "reinstall the window."

What should you do when you do want to, or need to, repair a cable sheath? Vinyl tape does just fine, Dave said, except in a wet location, and self-sealing mastic tape does even better. Best is a layer of self-fusing tape covered by a layer of vinyl. It even can be used outdoors on UF or SE cable, so long as it is not buried. For that, you need the sealing coverings that come with a Listed underground splice kit.
Art asked whether NM or SE cable repaired in this way still meets the UL standard. Dave commented that it is tough to say. There needs to be a dialogue between the manufacturer, AHJ, and installer. A qualified installer of repair materials should be able to make a repair acceptable to the AHJ, and Southwire's warranty will remain in effect. "Qualified?" Jim Wooten asked. "Someone who has received certified training in using the material, either in an apprenticeship class, or continuing education such as is offered by tape manufacturers." Even damaged Medium Voltage cable remains warrantied, so long as the shielded jacket, which is there for mechanical protection like that of MC, is fixed using a Listed repair kit installed by a qualified person.

Roger


 
And note what Dave Mercier from Southwire has to say about it.



Roger



Possibly a wordsmith game, or just not the full story.
My hypothesis, the PVC on THW is thicker than THWN, but both still pass the UL dielectric testing for rating.
I also suspect, by way of good hypothesis, the insulation thickness used to get UL dielectric rating is way more than actually needed.

example for PVC

NMB 14ga copper 0.063 dia
insulation w/o nylon 0.093 dia(OD)
insulation thickness = 0.015" = ~0.381mm

PVC dielectric(mid) = 17kV/mm

17 * 0.381 = 6.477kV

So my NMB rated at only 300v is actually good for ~13kV between two insulated conductors !!

So, it appears the major factor in "flexible" wire insulation thickness is physical properties and not dielectric.
 
Possibly a wordsmith game, or just not the full story.
My hypothesis, the PVC on THW is thicker than THWN, but both still pass the UL dielectric testing for rating.
I also suspect, by way of good hypothesis, the insulation thickness used to get UL dielectric rating is way more than actually needed.

example for PVC

NMB 14ga copper 0.063 dia
insulation w/o nylon 0.093 dia(OD)
insulation thickness = 0.015" = ~0.381mm

PVC dielectric(mid) = 17kV/mm

17 * 0.381 = 6.477kV

So my NMB rated at only 300v is actually good for ~13kV between two insulated conductors !!

So, it appears the major factor in "flexible" wire insulation thickness is physical properties and not dielectric.

Whatever floats your boat. :roll:

Roger
 
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