NM cable sleeved it conduit outdoors..

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Dennis Alwon

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Chapel Hill, NC
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Retired Electrical Contractor
There's really no need for insults just because I have differing opinions, sir.
The point is that you are telling members to disregard the code. I agree it will probably last forever however we don't like to encourage that type of work. As a licensed contractor I am liable and prefer to follow the NEC even if I believe it is BS in some cases.
 

satcom

Senior Member
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to realize the NEC is a rigged document, promulgated mainly to enrich electrical manufacturers. As stated above, NM conductors are thwn, so I'll strip them and put them wherever they need to go.

The real deal is it costs manufactures big dollars to bring an approved product to the market, it is a long process for everyone involved, but the real learning comes in the product testing stage, where it is put thru the varied stages of testing, cable goes thru a number of tests from the manufacturing floor, to a lab vault for age testing, all expensive operations, then after the product is issued a label, the rigged documents take over.

Lets get rid of all the building and fire codes, I always wanted to pay more for my homeowners insurance.
 
The point is that you are telling members to disregard the code. I agree it will probably last forever however we don't like to encourage that type of work. As a licensed contractor I am liable and prefer to follow the NEC even if I believe it is BS in some cases.

I disagree that I am encouraging anyone to violate the NEC. I most assuredly am not. But sometimes common sense has to overrule what some industry desk-jockey writes in fine print.
As an aside, your animated gif is super-cool. Frank Zappa was a genius.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
As a licensed contractor I am liable and prefer to follow the NEC even if I believe it is BS in some cases.

That's it in a nutshell. If the customer just wants a job done as cheap and easy as possible they may as well hire a handyman and take their chances.

If there ever is an accident or injury and a job ends up in court then it's up to you to prove that you have done a safe and code compliant job.

You could always say that in your "opinion" the code is BS (whichever code) but they would just bring in a ton of paperwork, engineers and lab rats that would make your arguement look insignificant.

I agree with you fully Dennis. I'm just one little guy and if the manufacturer says that a certain materials is only lsited for certian areas how would I even start to give a different opinion. I have never done the first controlled lab test. I don't have any documentation so all I would have is memory and in court that's considered useless.
 

Dennis Alwon

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Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
I disagree that I am encouraging anyone to violate the NEC. I most assuredly am not. But sometimes common sense has to overrule what some industry desk-jockey writes in fine print.
As an aside, your animated gif is super-cool. Frank Zappa was a genius.

Tell me how much more money is it to install UF in the conduit? A few pennies, relatively speaking. Here is your comment that I have issue with
Put it in there. The NEC is just a guide book. The NM will work forever.
The NEC is more than a guide it is "The Law". :D If it were just a guide book we would not have to follow it and we could do what we want. I have stated a number of times that I doubted NM would ever cause a problem in a conduit outdoors but I don't tell members to just do it.

EC's did it for years so I am sure there is tons of it out there but I make my men use UF in some situations. We use Thwn for whips to a/c units.

Zappa was quite a musical genius and supposedly never did drugs.
 

iwire

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Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
There's really no need for insults just because I have differing opinions, sir.

Not sure how to respond to this, my goal is not make you feel insulted but at the same time it is my personal opinion that following the code is professional and ignoring the code is unprofessional.

There have been times when I knowingly violated the code, when I have done so it has been unprofessional of me and I would not encourage others to follow that path. Our customers hire us over handymen presumably because we will follow the rules.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
As a licensed contractor I am liable and prefer to follow the NEC even if I believe it is BS in some cases.

As an example, I fully believe that running SE in a conduit underground for temp feeders is safe and should be allowed.

But recently the code made 100% clear that is not allowed, I don't agree with it but I will comply with it.
 

cowboyjwc

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Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
I need that on a t-shirt for when i meet with some inspectors! lol

Sorry, I'm an inspector and I already have that shirt for some of the contractors I meet.:happyyes:

Also I could never understand why you would use NMC in a conduit. Seems to me that it's just being lazy. Just pull wire in the conduit.
 
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iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Also I could never understand why you would use NMC in a conduit. Seems to me that it's just being lazy. Just pull wire in the conduit.


You say lazy, I say efficient in many cases.

I want the wire makers to sell spools of THWN with black, white, green twisted together so they are like a little triplex. That would be nice for small pipe jobs.
 

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
You say lazy, I say efficient in many cases.

I want the wire makers to sell spools of THWN with black, white, green twisted together so they are like a little triplex. That would be nice for small pipe jobs.

Thought when you pull in pipe you'd rather wire not to twist and cross??

How bout 500's twisted like tri-plex?
 

LEO2854

Esteemed Member
Location
Ma
Sorry, I'm an inspector and I already have that shirt for some of the contractors I meet.:happyyes:

Also I could never understand why you would use NMC in a conduit. Seems to me that it's just being lazy. Just pull wire in the conduit.

Sometimes it works out that way,it seems that some will do it anyhow and there others that do not know that it is not allowed by the code.

Until I was called out on it by an electrical inspector I would do that all the time.:roll:

I have never had a call back on Romex in conduit outside.
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
Is there any difference in the individual conductor insulation of UF and NMB ?

I do not know if there is a difference except for the outer jacket.

I want the wire makers to sell spools of THWN with black, white, green twisted together so they are like a little triplex. That would be nice for small pipe jobs.


After reading Bob's comment it hit me that it's probably just the ground they are worried about in NMB so it can't be used in wet locations. It's not insulated.

If they made a type of cable with an insulated ground that would probably solve the problem and an outer covering that was sunlight resistant or we could just use UF cable.

The only problem with having black,white and green on a spool is that some people would complain about ahving to pull a ground ( waste money ) in EMT.

No kidding the multi-color spools sound like a good idea . I would probably try it to see how it worked out. And we could have another spool of black, white, red and green, and another spool of black, red, blue, white and green. And then someone would figure out that it was easier just to go back to having all the cable on sperate spools.
 

don_resqcapt19

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Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
I want the wire makers to sell spools of THWN with black, white, green twisted together so they are like a little triplex. That would be nice for small pipe jobs.
You can get anything you want to pay for. There are a number of vendors that will supply you bundled cable in just about any combination of colors and sizes.
It is often called "quick pull" but I believe that to be a trade marked term. It would not likely be cost effective for 3 or 4 conductors. I did use a lot of 7 conductor for the door locks in a prison. We ordered it with the colors to match the pig tail on the lock assembly.
As long as the raceway is big enough for it to fit twisted cables will bend around a sweep easier.
Does the triplex or quadplex require a larger conduit? I don't think it does and it does seem to pull easier than pulling the same run with 3 or 4 single conductor. You can also get this set up in any size or color.

The real determining factor on the use of these things is labor cost. If the additional cost for the vendor to set the bundles up the way you want, is less than for you to do it in the field you save money.
 

cowboyjwc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Simi Valley, CA
You say lazy, I say efficient in many cases.

I want the wire makers to sell spools of THWN with black, white, green twisted together so they are like a little triplex. That would be nice for small pipe jobs.

Still say lazy, you run NMC for certain reasons and you run conduit for others. They are two different wiring methods.

Now I don't disagree with the thought of a triplex type wire or the manufactures could simply have NMC listed for damp/wet locations too.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
it does seem to pull easier than pulling the same run with 3 or 4 single conductor. .

When they are not twisted and enter into a 90 sweep the conductors on the outside of the sweep have to slide over the ones over the inside of the sweep because the outside of the sweep is longer. Add another 90 and now you have them trying to slide by each other with a lot of sidewall pressure on them.

With them twisted they all stay much closer to the same lenght as each one of them shares time on the inside and the outside of the curve.
 
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