No 2008

[76nemo]

I have yet to review '08. Can anyone site where these AFCI/GFCI combo's are called for? I didn't see this one coming, and wonder what they cover in res/commercial.

 

[76nemo]

Also

Also

Would using a GFCI protected recep on an AFCI breaker work in theory?
Would that fly with no shared neutrals? Could you possibly have both protections? I just don't see it. Well, yes I do in that scenario, but what about these combo's?

 

[iwire]

You can see the 2008 NEC on line

2008 NEC

Would using a GFCI protected recep on an AFCI breaker work in theory?

Yes it will work as before.

but what about these combo's?

The 'combos' are not combination AFCI / GFCI.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Nemo
You are from NYS.
You do not reference the NEC for arc fault requirements.
Go here:

Residential Code of New York State - 2007version (RCNYS)
E3802.11


New York State will not be referencing the 2008 NEC for years, we are referencing the 2002 and 2005 depending on the occupancy you are working in.


With that said, I had better clarify the Arc Fault requirements a little better.

1&2 family dwellings you will reference the RCNYS and the 2002 NEC. Branch/feeder type Arc Fault circuit breakers are the requirement.

For 3 family and larger buildings, you will reference the 2005 NEC and yes in those buildings you will use Combination type Arc Fault circuit breakers.

 

[76nemo]

****. I thought that was what the new combo's were Bob. Can you enlighten me?

One of my questions up in the air is................

I have a service to upgrade. The upstairs,(all bedrooms), are two wire.
So, I can do w/o AFCI protection for the bedrooms, I know. Buttttt, the customer is willing to pay for the highest/safest of service. I was thinking using AFCI protection for the bedrooms, and putting the two-wire on GFCI recep's as well for the branches. I guess I am truly lost on these new combo's. Like to fill Mr. Ignorant in??????

 

[mdshunk]

I have yet to review '08. Can anyone site where these AFCI/GFCI combo's are called for? I didn't see this one coming, and wonder what they cover in res/commercial.

Actually, that's not a new 2008 NEC requirement. That is a delayed requirement of the 2005 NEC, and you can read it at 210.12(B) in your 2005 NEC.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

****. I thought that was what the new combo's were Bob. Can you enlighten me?

One of my questions up in the air is................

I have a service to upgrade. The upstairs,(all bedrooms), are two wire.
So, I can do w/o AFCI protection for the bedrooms, I know. Buttttt, the customer is willing to pay for the highest/safest of service. I was thinking using AFCI protection for the bedrooms, and putting the two-wire on GFCI recep's as well for the branches. I guess I am truly lost on these new combo's. Like to fill Mr. Ignorant in??????

My understanding is that in NYS service upgrades do not put forth in action the requirement to install Arc Fault circuit breakers.
You can always add them if you like.

 

[76nemo]

Actually, that's not a new 2008 NEC requirement. That is a delayed requirement of the 2005 NEC, and you can read it at 210.12(B) in your 2005 NEC.

If it's coming, it's coming. I won't BS you. I am not a fan of the AFCI required app's.. This is all two-wire mostly upstairs. Two-wire is required to be serviced w/GFCI protection. AL and bedrooms are required to have AFCI protection. So, how about using AFCI breakers for the bedrooms, followed by GFCI recep. protection for two-wire on thee intial outlets with two others feeding off of it????
Am I losing you, or wording this wrong?????

 

[speedypetey]

If it's coming, it's coming. I won't BS you. I am not a fan of the AFCI required app's.. This is all two-wire mostly upstairs. Two-wire is required to be serviced w/GFCI protection. AL and bedrooms are required to have AFCI protection. So, how about using AFCI breakers for the bedrooms, followed by GFCI recep. protection for two-wire on thee intial outlets with two others feeding off of it????
Am I losing you, or wording this wrong?????

I am in NY as well and I have NO idea what you are talking about.

"Two-wire is required to be serviced w/GFCI protection."???
"AL and bedrooms are required to have AFCI protection."???
Where are you finding these rules? AFCIs are a new requirement in NYS, but only for new work or new circuits.

Do you have a copy of the new NYS residential code yet? You ABSOLUTELY should if you are doing any electrical work in NYS.

 

[76nemo]

Okay, here is where I frustrate so many. I DON'T CARE IF IT'S NY'S REQUIREMENT, CALIFORNIA'S, MARS, PLUTO'S,.....etc.

This is where I lose some jobs. If I do construction, it goes way above and beyond. The work is done up to my par. My par means more money than the average Joe in the phonebook. I am not any better by no means. I could have an inspector say Romex is fine, hell K&T is fine by me. Say rigid was overkill, thinwall is fine. Blah, blah, blah. I don't care what the inspector, county or State dictates, I work to my own standard.

Yes, two-wire app's should be protected bt GFCI circuitry. NY may not fall under AFCI provisions. If I find the house has no shared neutrals, the house is getting AFCI breakers for the upstairs/bedrooms.

If anyone thinks for one minute I think my work is holier than thou, you have me very mistaken. If I am going to service anything today, I'll service it like I think code will call for it 15 years from now.

See why I lose alot of jobs??? I stick to maintenance for the most part.

Thanks everyone for your opinions. I sure do like this forum.

Enjoy your weekend:smile:


WEALTHY AND GOOD LOOKING:grin: :roll: :grin: :grin: (Inside joke:smile: )

 

[76nemo]

I am in NY as well and I have NO idea what you are talking about.

"Two-wire is required to be serviced w/GFCI protection."???
"AL and bedrooms are required to have AFCI protection."???
Where are you finding these rules? AFCIs are a new requirement in NYS, but only for new work or new circuits.

Do you have a copy of the new NYS residential code yet? You ABSOLUTELY should if you are doing any electrical work in NYS.

I see your point speedy, required was not a well chosen word. How about CFMS? Chosen for my standard?

 

[iwire]

Okay, here is where I frustrate so many. I DON'T CARE IF IT'S NY'S REQUIREMENT, CALIFORNIA'S, MARS, PLUTO'S,.....etc.

This is where I lose some jobs. If I do construction, it goes way above and beyond. The work is done up to my par.

This is where I frustrate so many. :grin:

Shouldn't you be working to the customers standards and not your own?

When an electrician starts designing the job to what they would like in their own house IMO they have forgotten it's not their money to spend.

JMHO and certainly each person is free to run their business as they see fit, that was the point of being the boss.

 

[peter d]

This is where I frustrate so many. :grin:

Shouldn't you be working to the customers standards and not your own?

When an electrician starts designing the job to what they would like in their own house IMO they have forgotten it's not their money to spend.

Yeah, it always goes back to the Kia vs. BMW argument, doesn't it? Many electricians like to install to "BMW standards" on a Kia budget.

I take pride in a job well done, but most people have no idea about the differences in wiring methods and materials. Does it work? That's what they care about. Weather their kitchen light was wired with romex and a plastic box or 3/4" PVC coated RMC to a deck box with #10 XHHW conductors is completely irrelevant to them.

 

[76nemo]

My point is it matters to me. I won't BS you, I look to have pleased myself after completion more than the customer. Again, up to my standards, and sometimes, my loss. I work it this way or you have someone else do it.

With me,...stubborn wouldn't be a good adjective, it's far beoyond that when it comes to work ethic. Better than your work ethic? I did NOT say that. It's just my ethic, and suits me well

 

[speedypetey]

Bob and Peter make the perfect points.

Do what ever you want above and beyond code. Just don't whine when you lose so many jobs to those of us who do what our customers want and not what WE want.
I DO most certainly suggest lots of things I consider "upgrades". Yes, most times my customers will have a job done pretty much as I suggest. This way it's not my decision, it's the customer's.

 

[76nemo]

This is where I frustrate so many. :grin:

Shouldn't you be working to the customers standards and not your own?

When an electrician starts designing the job to what they would like in their own house IMO they have forgotten it's not their money to spend.

JMHO and certainly each person is free to run their business as they see fit, that was the point of being the boss.

....................


"When an electrician starts designing the job to what they would like in their own house IMO they have forgotten it's not their money to spend."

Absolutely agree, hence why I don't do alot of construction. Everyone's heard of OCD, right???

 

[peter d]

My point is it matters to me. I won't BS you, I look to have pleased myself after completion more than the customer. Again, up to my standards, and sometimes, my loss. I work it this way or you have someone else do it.

To each their own.

But that doesn't make good business sense to me. I believe you have to constantly adjust your standards for every job and situation ($$).

 

[iwire]

My point is it matters to me. I won't BS you, I look to have pleased myself after completion more than the customer. Again, up to my standards, and sometimes, my loss. I work it this way or you have someone else do it.

With me,...stubborn wouldn't be a good adjective, it's far beoyond that when it comes to work ethic. Better than your work ethic? I did NOT say that. It's just my ethic, and suits me well

I can understand that view but I am not sure that it is ethical to spend the customers money just to please ourselves and that applies just as much to service calls as construction.

 

[76nemo]

Bob and Peter make the perfect points.

Do what ever you want above and beyond code. Just don't whine when you lose so many jobs to those of us who do what our customers want and not what WE want.
I DO most certainly suggest lots of things I consider "upgrades". Yes, most times my customers will have a job done pretty much as I suggest. This way it's not my decision, it's the customer's.

Please Sir, understand I am not whining by ANY means. Not doing alot of construction is FINE by me. I like troubleshooting, mainly machinery repair.
No Sir, I am not a whiner. There is a place for them. Hopefully, not here.

 

[76nemo]

To each their own.

But that doesn't make good business sense to me. I believe you have to constantly adjust your standards for every job and situation ($$).

Agree 200% peter. I wasn't kidding about OCD. No wonder I am single:grin: