no common area for a two flat

mike1061

Senior Member
Location
Chicago
What we have here is a two flat, in Chicago, with a store on the 1st fl and an apartment on the 2nd fl. There is no common area for the disconnects on the first floor or the basement. Both of those areas are for the 1st floor use only.
So the architect proposes that we put a main disconnect on the 1st fl, with a separate disconnect located on each floor. He seems to be saying that the 2nd fl tenets only need access to there disconnect not the main. Does that make sense?
I proposed that we ask the city for special permission to locate the 2nd fl disconnect on the second floor. I did this for another job.
Thanks
Mike
 

Gregg Harris

Senior Member
Location
Virginia
What we have here is a two flat, in Chicago, with a store on the 1st fl and an apartment on the 2nd fl. There is no common area for the disconnects on the first floor or the basement. Both of those areas are for the 1st floor use only.
So the architect proposes that we put a main disconnect on the 1st fl, with a separate disconnect located on each floor. He seems to be saying that the 2nd fl tenets only need access to there disconnect not the main. Does that make sense?
I proposed that we ask the city for special permission to locate the 2nd fl disconnect on the second floor. I did this for another job.
Thanks
Mike
230.72(C)
(C) Access to Occupants. In a multiple-occupancy building, each occupant shall have access to the occupant?s service disconnecting means.
 

mike1061

Senior Member
Location
Chicago
Why can't you install a two gang meter assembly at the service location with main breakers ? Then your indoor panels would be subpanels.
This one,s easy. In Chicago you can't have the disconnects located outside. They do it in the Neighboring city of Hammond, IN, but not here.
Thanks
Mike
 

mike1061

Senior Member
Location
Chicago
This is what the architect came up with.
First of all, we are not re-using the existing service.
Second, they have it drawn as an incoming 200 amp service going to a main disconnect, with two meters next to it. With or without breakers/disconnects I'm not sure. The first floor meter would then go directly to a load center with a main breaker. The second floor meter would go outside the building up to the 2nd floor to a load center with a main breaker.

This is what I'm not understanding. If there is no breaker with the 2nd floor meter, are the wires going outside and up the second floor panel not properly protected? To me there should be a breaker at the meter. If there is a breaker at the meter, then wouldn't that be the 2nd floors disconnect, regardless of the fact that there is a main breaker in the 2nd floor panel? You know what I mean?
Thanks
Mike
 

Attachments

jumper

Senior Member
I do not understand #4 to a 100A panel-undersized or the water pipe GEC in the 200A panel-after the first disconnecting means.

The outside feeder to the second floor might fall under under 240.21(B)(5) and be fine as far as taps and OCPD are concerned. The wire size is questioned above.
 

mike1061

Senior Member
Location
Chicago
The #4 is for a residential service. 310.15(B)(6)
The other #4 (to the water service) is the ground 250.66
It should be drawn connected to the main disconnect. IMO. That's what I would do, unless someone tells something different.
Thanks
Mike
 

mrtom

Member
Location
Chicago-Area
What we have here is a two flat, in Chicago, with a store on the 1st fl and an apartment on the 2nd fl. There is no common area for the disconnects on the first floor or the basement. Both of those areas are for the 1st floor use only.
So the architect proposes that we put a main disconnect on the 1st fl, with a separate disconnect located on each floor. He seems to be saying that the 2nd fl tenets only need access to there disconnect not the main. Does that make sense?
I proposed that we ask the city for special permission to locate the 2nd fl disconnect on the second floor. I did this for another job.
Thanks
Mike
Very surprised there is no common area, architect trying to squeeze every inch for units. Did the City approve his drawing that you attached? Only asking as he clearly did not list location of the main and metering on that drawing. I have had "words" with several designers and architects over the years that there needs to be a common area for electrical equipment, they didnt believe me until their drawings were rejected by the City. What if the store owner got mad at second floor and turned main off during the middle of the night to teach them a road-rage type lesson? What if the Fire department needs to pull meter to second floor if there was a fire on second floor and the store is closed? What if for whatever reason that main trips and the store is closed? There needs to be an electrical room, even minimally sized (seen them looking like large closets) but accessible to both store and unit. Usually in basement, or on first floor, and have seen them built as a small one-room addition to back of building if no one wants to lose a few feet of space LOL.
 

mike1061

Senior Member
Location
Chicago
Those were my reasons for posting the question in the first place.
No they didn't approve of the drawing yet. The original one got rejected, and this was the replacement one. Submitted yesterday. I will try to post if it's approved. Or not.
Thanks
Mik
 

Cavie

Senior Member
Location
SW Florida
This is what the architect came up with.
First of all, we are not re-using the existing service.
Second, they have it drawn as an incoming 200 amp service going to a main disconnect, with two meters next to it. With or without breakers/disconnects I'm not sure. The first floor meter would then go directly to a load center with a main breaker. The second floor meter would go outside the building up to the 2nd floor to a load center with a main breaker.

This is what I'm not understanding. If there is no breaker with the 2nd floor meter, are the wires going outside and up the second floor panel not properly protected? To me there should be a breaker at the meter. If there is a breaker at the meter, then wouldn't that be the 2nd floors disconnect, regardless of the fact that there is a main breaker in the 2nd floor panel? You know what I mean?
Thanks
Mike
Your drawing shows a 100 amp MB upstairs and a 200 amp MB downstairs. You don't need breakers at the meter unless the feeders are inside the building. Outside the building or under the slab needs no breaker at the meter. Generally you get 5' inside to the panel.
 
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