No concrete encased electrode present

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nizak

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Get to the job (new residential build) and no CEE present anywhere.Unfamiliar with poured wall contractor never worked with this Co. Is it a specific requirement to install it, or a specific requirement to use it if present? Basement floor is poured, foundation is backfilled.

Will any of the listed electrodes meet code if they produce the 25ohms or less requirement?
I have plastic water service coming into the house so that's not an option.
My options are 1(or2) 8' rods, or a 2'x2' Cu or steel plate.

Thoughts appreciated.
 
It depends on your area. In NC they basically ignore the whole ufer deal however if there was a footing with rebar that matches the requirements for an electrode then imo you would need to connect to it.
 
nizak said:
Get to the job (new residential build) and no CEE present anywhere.Unfamiliar with poured wall contractor never worked with this Co. Is it a specific requirement to install it, or a specific requirement to use it if present? Basement floor is poured, foundation is backfilled.

Will any of the listed electrodes meet code if they produce the 25ohms or less requirement?
I have plastic water service coming into the house so that's not an option.
My options are 1(or2) 8' rods, or a 2'x2' Cu or steel plate.

Thoughts appreciated.
Click to expand...
250.50 says if it is present it shall be used. How it is dealt with by AHJ's if it is present but wasn't made available to connect to can be different in each AHJ how that is handled. Some may allow for something alternate, some may make you find a way to connect to the CEE.
 
nizak said:
Get to the job (new residential build) and no CEE present anywhere.Unfamiliar with poured wall contractor never worked with this Co. Is it a specific requirement to install it, or a specific requirement to use it if present? Basement floor is poured, foundation is backfilled.

Will any of the listed electrodes meet code if they produce the 25ohms or less requirement?
I have plastic water service coming into the house so that's not an option.
My options are 1(or2) 8' rods, or a 2'x2' Cu or steel plate.

Thoughts appreciated.
Click to expand...

III. Grounding Electrode System and Grounding
Electrode Conductor
250.50 Grounding Electrode System. All grounding electrodes
as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are
present at each building or structure served shall be bonded
together to form the grounding electrode system. Where
none of these grounding electrodes exist, one or more of
the grounding electrodes specified in

You mean you can not connect to the CEE correct?

Now can anyone prove this?

(3) Concrete-Encased Electrode. A concrete-encased
electrode shall consist of at least 6.0 m (20 ft) of either
(1) or (2):
(1) One or more bare or zinc galvanized or other electrically
conductive coated steel reinforcing bars or rods of
not less than 13 mm (1?2 in.) in diameter, installed in
one continuous 6.0 m (20 ft) length, or if in multiple
pieces connected together by the usual steel tie wires,
exothermic welding, welding, or other effective means
to create a 6.0 m (20 ft) or greater length; or
 
my boss told me when I asked which gec method to choose he said in his opinion 2 out of 3 will usually work because he has been asked to prove that bldg steel was connected to cee and to prove the specs for rebar stubbed up were good for cee. . So we usually do bldg steel and ground rod. Im interested in the 2 ground rod method.
 
jxofaltrds said:
...

Now can anyone prove this?

(3) Concrete-Encased Electrode. A concrete-encased
electrode shall consist of at least 6.0 m (20 ft) of either
(1) or (2):
(1) One or more bare or zinc galvanized or other electrically
conductive coated steel reinforcing bars or rods of
not less than 13 mm (1?2 in.) in diameter, installed in
one continuous 6.0 m (20 ft) length, or if in multiple
pieces connected together by the usual steel tie wires,
exothermic welding, welding, or other effective means
to create a 6.0 m (20 ft) or greater length; or
Click to expand...
What is the minimum rebar required by the building code?
 
Many footing may not require rebar but it is often installed. We see nothing but 1/2 " or, rarely, larger around here
 
R403.1.3 Seismic reinforcing.

Concrete footings located in Seismic Design Categories D1 and D2, as established in Table R301.2(1), shall have minimum reinforcement. Bottom reinforcement shall be located a minimum of 3 inches (76 mm) clear from the bottom of the footing.

In Seismic Design Categories D1 and D2 where a construction joint is created between a concrete footing and stem wall, a minimum of one No. 4 bar shall be provided at not more than 4 feet (1219 mm) on center. The vertical bar shall extend to 3 inches (76 mm) clear of the bottom of the footing, have a standard hook and extend a minimum of 14 inches (357 mm) into the stem wall.

In Seismic Design Categories D1 and D2 where a grouted masonry stem wall is supported on a concrete footing and stem wall, a minimum of one No. 4 bar shall be provided at not more than four feet on center. The vertical bar shall extend to 3 inches (76 mm) clear of the bottom of the footing and have a standard hook.

In Seismic Design Categories D1 and D2 masonry stem walls without solid grout and vertical reinforcing shall not be permitted.

Exception: In detached one- and two-family dwellings which are three stories or less in height and constructed with stud bearing walls, plain concrete footings without longitudinal reinforcement supporting walls and isolated plain concrete footings supporting columns or pedestals are permitted.

http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/st/oh/st/b4v06/st_oh_st_b4v06_4_sec003.htm?bu=OH-P-2011-000004

Example:

Ohio.jpg
 
jxofaltrds said:
Exception: In detached one- and two-family dwellings which are three stories or less in height and constructed with stud bearing walls, plain concrete footings without longitudinal reinforcement supporting walls and isolated plain concrete footings supporting columns or pedestals are permitted.
Click to expand...


Thank you. This is what I was thinking about but I have never seen a footing for a dwelling that did not have rebar-- at least not with the builders I work for
 
In our counties the CCE is part of the footing form inspection. That is supposed to be there or does not pass. A missed one may need to be re poured.:happysad:
 
Sierrasparky said:
In our counties the CCE is part of the footing form inspection. That is supposed to be there or does not pass. A missed one may need to be re poured.:happysad:
Click to expand...

We were trying to get this done but technically the building inspector would have to have an electrical inspector license or certificate to do this inspection compliantly. Not all inspectors have that around here
 
Dennis Alwon said:
We were trying to get this done but technically the building inspector would have to have an electrical inspector license or certificate to do this inspection compliantly. Not all inspectors have that around here
Click to expand...
Confused!
huh, You have a business relationship with the OP?

In our locals, The UFFER would have to be signed off prior to the pour. It's a seperate item on the ispection card. Someone could be in trouble if it was out here in the west.
 
jxofaltrds said:
III. Grounding Electrode System and Grounding
Electrode Conductor
250.50 Grounding Electrode System. All grounding electrodes
as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are
present at each building or structure served shall be bonded
together to form the grounding electrode system. Where
none of these grounding electrodes exist, one or more of
the grounding electrodes specified in

You mean you can not connect to the CEE correct?

Now can anyone prove this?

(3) Concrete-Encased Electrode. A concrete-encased
electrode shall consist of at least 6.0 m (20 ft) of either
(1) or (2):
(1) One or more bare or zinc galvanized or other electrically
conductive coated steel reinforcing bars or rods of
not less than 13 mm (1?2 in.) in diameter, installed in
one continuous 6.0 m (20 ft) length, or if in multiple
pieces connected together by the usual steel tie wires,
exothermic welding, welding, or other effective means
to create a 6.0 m (20 ft) or greater length; or
Click to expand...

Don't forget the exception.

250.50 Grounding Electrode System. All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are present at each building or structure served shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system. Where none of these grounding electrodes exist, one or more of the grounding electrodes specified in 250.52(A)(4) through (A)(8) shall be installed and used.
Exception:? Concrete-encased electrodes of existing buildings or structures shall not be required to be part of the grounding electrode system where the steel reinforcing bars or rods are not accessible for use without disturbing the concrete.
 
GoldDigger said:
I think it would be difficult to call it an existing structure just because the EC arrived after the foundation was poured. :)
Click to expand...

And is at least part of why that section got reworded a while back (2005 maybe?) It used to say something like "where available" and did not have the exception for existing buildings. What that resulted in was footings being installed before an electrician was ever on site. By the time the electrician did show up the CEE was no longer available so it was seldom ever being used unless the electrician made an effort to connect to it when it was easy to do so. I'll admit to never connecting to a CEE before this code changed, the CEE was never available by the time I showed up to do any work.
 
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