No Electrical Options for Plumbing Pipe

[darunedefig]

I have a customer who has an empty 4" plumbing pipe between their old detached garage and house basement.
It is straight and about 20' feet. The ground is all large rocks between house and garage.
I don't think their are any code compliant options for electrical in this pipe, but just wanted to check?
I am not talking about running THWN wires, but a rated? cable or other conduit inside this pipe/"chase"?

Running PVC SCH 80 electrical or EMT 1" conduit would have strapping issues.
Though one could strap it to a 2x4 and slide it in and secure 2x4 to wall studs on each side
then slap a label on the plumping pipe and say "Do not use..." .
I know my inspector would pass this, but I want to be NEC compliant.

USE is not permitted to be indoors, so that is out.

We are allowed all the time with running cable down empty PVC pipe from attics to
basements all the time, but that is a vertical chase. Short runs in vertical chases don't need strapping for the vertical part.

 

[electrofelon]

Much/Most USE is dual rated with RHW-2 which makes it ok inside. That could be directly buried and if you wanted to "directly bury it" in some plumbing pipe, that is fine. Tray cable is also usually rated for direct bury.

 

[zbang]

Running PVC SCH 80 electrical or EMT 1" conduit would have strapping issues.
Though one could strap it to a 2x4 and slide it in and secure 2x4 to wall studs on each side
then slap a label on the plumping pipe and say "Do not use..." .
I know my inspector would pass this, but I want to be NEC compliant.

By my reading (352.30 for PVC, wouldn't use EMT here), it's even simpler than that- just slid the PVC into the larger pipe (now a sleeve) and strap the PVC near the boxes as usual. Nothing else is needed as it's continually supported inside the sleeve so supports are closer than the table says they need to be.

 

[darunedefig]

IN a thread "One more time: USE-2 indoors? and, in conduit, or exposed?", electrofelon.. you said"

USE-2 by itself cannot be run indoors. Many USE-2 conductors (or assemblies often called URD or MHF) are marked RHH/RHW-2 and if so, can be run indoors, but do need to be run in conduit indoors.

this is where I am tripping up as it concerns URD cable. You said "need to be run in conduit indoors". So I guess put a junction box on both sides of the pipe and have URD enter JB would satisfy that. Then can go EMT from JB to electric panels. Only thing is this 4" PVC plumbing pipe doesn't end right at the wall, but goes into the building about 3 feet.

 

[darunedefig]

By my reading (352.30 for PVC, wouldn't use EMT here), it's even simpler than that- just slid the PVC into the larger pipe (now a sleeve) and strap the PVC near the boxes as usual. Nothing else is needed as it's continually supported inside the sleeve so supports are closer than the table says they need to be.

It makes sense to me that it is "continually supported" by resting at the bottom of the pipe "sleeve", but is that actually stated in the code?

I see where it does mention horizontal runs in 352.30:

Horizontal runs of PVC conduit
supported by openings through framing members at intervals
not exceeding those in Table 352.30 and securely fastened
within 900 mm (3 ft) of termination points shall be permitted.

Ok.. so this can apply even though it is not a "framing member".

 

[zbang]

Mr Sawzall will deal with that.

It makes sense to me that it is "continually supported" by resting at the bottom of the pipe "sleeve", but is that actually stated in the code?

Does it need to be stated? The support should be obvious, or... how is it not supported? Straps support where there is otherwise nothing under the conduit, but here there is (like in a tray).

 

[electrofelon]

IN a thread "One more time: USE-2 indoors? and, in conduit, or exposed?", electrofelon.. you said"

this is where I am tripping up as it concerns URD cable. You said "need to be run in conduit indoors". So I guess put a junction box on both sides of the pipe and have URD enter JB would satisfy that. Then can go EMT from JB to electric panels. Only thing is this 4" PVC plumbing pipe doesn't end right at the wall, but goes into the building about 3 feet.

I guess you could nitpick the wording a little bit in regards to exactly where the "direct burying" starts, but it seems to me it would be okay if you came in to say the back of a pull box, put an end Bell on the white PVC. Or adapt it down to go into an LB.

 

[roger]

You didn't say what size conductors. Why not use UF?

 

[darunedefig]

You didn't say what size conductors. Why not use UF?

I said 1" conduit, but you are right I didn't mention wire size. #4 cu, but likely less.. still in discussion with customer.

I will let those wiser than me answer

Why not use UF?

I would think it would be fine based on everything else we discussed.

 

[darunedefig]

Mr Sawzall will deal with that.


Does it need to be stated? The support should be obvious, or... how is it not supported? Straps support where there is otherwise nothing under the conduit, but here there is (like in a tray).

Thanks. Yes I can cut to wall, but was curious if I couldn't.

"like a tray" helped put my brain to the correct way of thinking.

 

[infinity]

You can use a raceway that is permitted to be fished like RMC or LFMC and fish it through the sleeve without securing it.

 

[AC\DC]

Trying to strap conduit in a chase is dumb and not needed. You don’t strap conduit trenches( I know large jobs with multiple runs you do but that for a different reason)
If your that paranoid make a concrete slurry and pour
Down in the 2” now what ever conduit is now encased
Either conduit or xhhw dual rated like felon said

 

[cadpoint]

Other than a sleeve, when has white plumbing PVC ever allowed as an electrical raceway?

 

[electrofelon]

You can use a raceway that is permitted to be fished like RMC or LFMC and fish it through the sleeve without securing it.

There is language now specifically allowing raceways to be fished? I always thought that was a bit of a gray area. I remember in about 2016 fishing a run of 3 in PVC down a purlin in a steel building

 

[electrofelon]

Other than a sleeve, when has white plumbing PVC ever allowed as an electrical raceway?

I don't think it ever was, but most people seem to go by the theory that if you have direct Bury conductors then since you don't need a raceway at all then you are welcome to put whatever you want over it or run it through whatever

 

[infinity]

There is language now specifically allowing raceways to be fished? I always thought that was a bit of a gray area. I remember in about 2016 fishing a run of 3 in PVC down a purlin in a steel building

Yup, here's just one example:

350.30(A) Securely Fastened. LFMC shall be securely fastened in place by an approved means within 300 mm (12 in.) of each box, cabinet, conduit body, or other conduit termination and shall be supported and
secured at intervals not to exceed 1.4 m (41∕ 2 ft). Where used, cable ties shall be listed and be identified for securement and support.
Exception No. 1: Where LFMC is fished between access points through concealed spaces in finished buildings or structures and supporting is impractical.

 

[roger]

I said 1" conduit, but you are right I didn't mention wire size. #4 cu, but likely less.. still in discussion with customer.

Until you know the actual size of the conductors you are probably spinning your wheels. The difference in price between pulling UF through the pipe and other more involved methods can be pretty sizeable.

 

[roger]

Other than a sleeve, when has white plumbing PVC ever allowed as an electrical raceway?

Installing (in this case fishing) a proper cable assembly through an existing void (abandoned plumbing) is not installing conductors that require conduit.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

You can use a raceway that is permitted to be fished like RMC or LFMC and fish it through the sleeve without securing it.

I think the exceptions that permit unsupported fished wiring methods only apply within a building.

 

[infinity]

I think the exceptions that permit unsupported fished wiring methods only apply within a building.

After reading it again I think that you're correct. Having said that I see no reason why going through a sleeve between two structures should be a violation.