No Ground Wire?

[Power Tech]

I just finished changing 2 services at a duplex. All the romex is 2 wire with no ground. The signed permit of 1956 was in the old meter box. Could I install GFI breakers? AFCI breakers? GFI receptacles. Am I faced with a total rewire?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

GFCI and arc faults do not need a ground wire to function properly.

 

[mdshunk]

I've never been required to anything with the branch circuits when doing a service change. GFCI breakers will enhance the safety of the installation, and rewiring may not enhance anything. Whatever you can sell the owner on, I say.

 

[Buck Parrish]

Could I install GFI breakers? AFCI breakers? GFI receptacles. Am I faced with a total rewire?

You can , yes. But it is not required in most juisdictions when you are doing a service upgrade.
If you do change the outlets to three prong they must be gfci protected and marked no eauipment ground.
Have you ever seen the little stickers that come with gfci recepticles when you buy one ?

 

[Power Tech]

Someone has beat me to the receptacle swap and replaced with (ungrounded) 3 prong. I did get final inspection. This is a great customer where quality is all that counts. What would be the best? AFCI breaker with GFI on the recepts?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Someone has beat me to the receptacle swap and replaced with (ungrounded) 3 prong. I did get final inspection. This is a great customer where quality is all that counts. What would be the best? AFCI breaker with GFI on the recepts?

Why not both. If i had to choose I would probably go with...... not sure- arc fault?

 

[mdshunk]

This is one occasion where the combination AFCI/GFCI breakers worked real good. You needed the GFCI component to upgrade to 3-prongs, and the AFCI component just to make things extra safe for 2008. Alas, the combination AFCI/GFCI breakers aren't being made anymore, I'm told. Just the AFCI by itself won't permit you to upgrade to ungrounded 3-prongers.

 

[Power Tech]

Anyone know why they stopped making the combination GFI/AFCI breaker. The new AFCI's are combination? A different combination?
Terry

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Anyone know why they stopped making the combination GFI/AFCI breaker. The new AFCI's are combination? A different combination?
Terry

Combo arc faults are not the same as arc fault/ gfci breakers. Combo arc faults detect series as well as parallel faults. In the past the arc faults only did parallel faults I believe.

I suppose supply demand. No one bought the arc/gfci breakers so they discontinued them.

 

[mdshunk]

Anyone know why they stopped making the combination GFI/AFCI breaker.

The sales just weren't there to support that product. They were a little bit on the expensive side, but all of these cool problem-solving gadgets are. I used just enough of them that I'm sorta sad that I won't be able to get them any more.

The new AFCI's are combination? A different combination?

Yeah, different kind of combination. The "combination AFCI" detects a combination of parallel (line to neutral or line to ground) and series (break in the line) arcing faults.

 

[electricalperson]

i think if you start replacing breakers with afci's or gfci's you might run into problems with shared neutrals causing the breakers to trip left and right

 

[mdshunk]

i think if you start replacing breakers with afci's or gfci's you might run into problems with shared neutrals causing the breakers to trip left and right

So far, no one has suggested using a single pole AFCI or GFCI breaker on a multiwire branch circuit. You're right though, that doesn't work.

 

[Power Tech]

All the circuits are 2 wire and I ran seperate neutrals to each circuit. They do make 250 volt GFCI's, do they make 2 pole AFCI's?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

All the circuits are 2 wire and I ran seperate neutrals to each circuit. They do make 250 volt GFCI's, do they make 2 pole AFCI's?

Some manufacturers make dp arc faults but I have not seen any that were DP combination arc faults

 

[electricalperson]

even if there is seperate neutrals in the panel who says the original electrician didnt splice them all together in a switch box where 2 or more circuits go into