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enireh

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Canyon Lake,TX
looking at an hold home in the hills, the home inspector reported the outlets are not grounded, he suggested make all the outlets two prong and use GFCI breakers on those circuits. If tearing out the walls is not an option, will the GFCI breakers make it safe?
 
Well, "safe" is a relative term, but yes, this is a compliant way to give more protection to ungrounded receptacles. Are you really still on the 1984 Code?
 
If you're going to use two prong outlets per the existing you don't even need to use GFCI protection, if you change them to three prong you would need to use GFCI protection, see article section 406.4(D)(2)

Roger
 
enireh said:
looking at an hold home in the hills, the home inspector reported the outlets are not grounded, he suggested make all the outlets two prong and use GFCI breakers on those circuits. If tearing out the walls is not an option, will the GFCI breakers make it safe?
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I assume you meant change to three prong.

Yes, you can change to three prong receptacles if they are GFCI protected. A GFCI breaker or GFCI rec at the first receptacle in a circuit can protect the downstream recs on that circuit.

See 406.4(D)(2).
 
enireh said:
looking at an hold home in the hills, the home inspector reported the outlets are not grounded, he suggested make all the outlets two prong and use GFCI breakers on those circuits. If tearing out the walls is not an option, will the GFCI breakers make it safe?
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The version of the Code in effect for this home will also have an important impact on the replacement of the grounding type receptacle devices.

Existing multiwire branch circuits will require two pole GFCIs, and any cross-neutrals or existing neutral - EGC connections are going to require finding and correcting.

If either the 2014 or 2017 are in effect, the act of replacement invokes all of 406.4(D). The hard one "may" be 406.4(D)(4) and the requirement of AFCI. Even though you are going back to nongrounding type receptacle devices, it IS replacing the device. Now, the inspector is wrong to suggest going back to nongrounding type receptacles, as the GFCI protected grounding type receptacle without an EGC is compliant.

Also, there is unfinished business for receptacles that have certain equipment installed where the equipment manufacturer's instructions require an Equipment Grounding Conductor (EGC) connection for their cord (think microwave, refrigerator, window AC, cable or satellite set top box, etc.) so the GFCI protection doesn't help with that.
 
A GFCI does not check against (or need) a ground. It detects a difference in phase and neutral current. If the phase current equals the neutral current on a circuit, then that means all the current entering the circuit on the phase line is returning on the neutral line. Ergo, the GFCI ensures the current isn't being diverted somewhere else (i.e., through a ground path back to the source), which could include a human in series with that ground path!!!

The GFCI does not need an EGC to work, which is why they are often recommended for existing (old two prong) wiring configuration that do not have an EGC (ground wire). Should a ground fault occur, the GFCI will often trip as soon as it happens, provided the fault actually results in current flow. If an open fault occurs, then the GFCI will trip as soon as the circuit is closed in some way, which is often due to human activity...and will help avoid an electrocution event.

Will it make is safe? Yes, as described above. But not as safe as BOTH an EGC AND a GFCI. In the last example above, an EGC resolves the ground fault, causing the breaker to trip BEFORE human activity presents itself to the circuit. If the fault isn't resolved by the EGC, then it's left to the GFCI to do it's job. And if that involves human contact, SOME current is imposed before the break.

A GFCI breaker will work. As will a GFCI outlet at the beginning of run wired in series. Just watch out for multi-wire (shared neutral) circuits. And you'll also need to label the downstream outlets as GFCI protected without ground (or something like that...there are stickies readily available).
 
al hildenbrand said:
The version of the Code in effect for this home will also have an important impact on the replacement of the grounding type receptacle devices.

Existing multiwire branch circuits will require two pole GFCIs, and any cross-neutrals or existing neutral - EGC connections are going to require finding and correcting.

If either the 2014 or 2017 are in effect, the act of replacement invokes all of 406.4(D). The hard one "may" be 406.4(D)(4) and the requirement of AFCI. Even though you are going back to nongrounding type receptacle devices, it IS replacing the device. Now, the inspector is wrong to suggest going back to nongrounding type receptacles, as the GFCI protected grounding type receptacle without an EGC is compliant.

Also, there is unfinished business for receptacles that have certain equipment installed where the equipment manufacturer's instructions require an Equipment Grounding Conductor (EGC) connection for their cord (think microwave, refrigerator, window AC, cable or satellite set top box, etc.) so the GFCI protection doesn't help with that.
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In NJ we would say to the home inspector "That's nice. Not gonna happen."
 
gadfly56 said:
In NJ we would say to the home inspector "That's nice. Not gonna happen."
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:D

As one who has worked under un-modified State-wide adoption of the NEC over the last two decades of change, all I can say is: "Just you wait! Your turn's comin'."
 
al hildenbrand said:
:D

As one who has worked under un-modified State-wide adoption of the NEC over the last two decades of change, all I can say is: "Just you wait! Your turn's comin'."
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Not likely. The Hovnanian-types have too much influence and homeowners would lynch the legislators if they tried to scrap the rehabilitation sub-code.
 
A friend who was an elevator mechanic/technician used to respond to inspectors' "I'd like to see . . . " statements with "Just sign the change order."
 
gadfly56 said:
In NJ we would say to the home inspector "That's nice. Not gonna happen."
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This is a home inspection and not a code inspection so the rehab code really wouldn't help.

Often these inspections are used by lenders to approve loans. I ran into one where the inspector was working for FHA to approve a loan and he didn't even give the owner the option of useing GFCI protection on a three pronged outlet. He insisted on the two pronged receptacles. He may be an idiot but he does have the power to hold up the sale of a home.
 
growler said:
This is a home inspection and not a code inspection so the rehab code really wouldn't help.

Often these inspections are used by lenders to approve loans. I ran into one where the inspector was working for FHA to approve a loan and he didn't even give the owner the option of useing GFCI protection on a three pronged outlet. He insisted on the two pronged receptacles. He may be an idiot but he does have the power to hold up the sale of a home.
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Other than someone working for Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac, how does an HI get any clout behind his recommendations if not from the local code?
 
gadfly56 said:
...how does an HI get any clout behind his recommendations if not from the local code?
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The real estate people may put it in their contracts that such recommendations have a certain weight. Doesn't mean the sale would be illegal or against the AHJ, but would be against the terms of the contract.
 
MAC702 said:
The real estate people may put it in their contracts that such recommendations have a certain weight. Doesn't mean the sale would be illegal or against the AHJ, but would be against the terms of the contract.
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Well, if I'm the seller, it's still "Not gonna happen". A contract takes two to tango.
 
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