No isolated neutral in house panel

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bjp_ne_elec

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Southern NH
Roughing in a remodel of a house and pull the panel cover to start tying in few circuits and notice the neutral is not isolated, after seeing a main disconnect out in the garage. Obviously I need to get this corrected, but my question is on the particular routing of the ground that I need to get from first disconnecting means to this panel. Does it have to be run along the SE or can I just take the best route? The 200 amp SE cable is buried in a few walls, and the only way to get the ground to run along with the SE is to rip Sheetrock down.

Thanks
 
mwm1752 said:
I commend the Idea but ---
Was the install compliant per the code cycle it was installed in?
Are you replaceing the panel?
Is the grounding & bonding properly installed?
What is your life safety issue?
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I agree, could have been installed when all that was needed was a 3 wire feed and a ground rod.
 
qcroanoke said:
I agree, could have been installed when all that was needed was a 3 wire feed and a ground rod.
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Unless that garage where this feed originates is a separate structure, it was a very long time ago that a three wire feed MAY have been code compliant.

I don't know for certain but would guess at least around the time code started requiring equipment grounding conductors for nearly everything would be the most recent editions where you may have been allowed to run a three wire feeder in the same building, so that puts us at least late 1950's early 1960's I would think as the latest point it may have been allowed.
 
The exception to allow the use of the grounded conductor for system grounding at a separate structure changed in the 2008 NEC. Prior editions like the 2005 had the exception in 250.32(B).
 
infinity said:
The exception to allow the use of the grounded conductor for system grounding at a separate structure changed in the 2008 NEC. Prior editions like the 2005 had the exception in 250.32(B).
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But the question here (I think) is was it ever permitted to do so within a building, not for separate buildings? If it was I am guessing it was at least 1950(ish) or earlier, after that you had to use a separate EGC, ranges and clothes dryers were about the only exception, and nobody really knows why they stayed that way for as long as they did - I think it was 1996 - maybe 1999 when they finally changed those.
 
kwired said:
Unless that garage where this feed originates is a separate structure, it was a very long time ago that a three wire feed MAY have been code compliant.

I don't know for certain but would guess at least around the time code started requiring equipment grounding conductors for nearly everything would be the most recent editions where you may have been allowed to run a three wire feeder in the same building, so that puts us at least late 1950's early 1960's I would think as the latest point it may have been allowed.
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But it was practiced for longer than that, or at least what may cause this result. My house in Florida was built in the late 1970's along with all the others in the neighborhood. They are all built with a meter (no disconnect) and a three wire run through the attic to an interior location with a service disconnect and bonding. My research shows that wasn't legal then, but this area certainly allowed it. Subsequently I have seen people put disconnects on the outside without pulling a ground to the panel.
 
Strathead said:
But it was practiced for longer than that, or at least what may cause this result. My house in Florida was built in the late 1970's along with all the others in the neighborhood. They are all built with a meter (no disconnect) and a three wire run through the attic to an interior location with a service disconnect and bonding. My research shows that wasn't legal then, but this area certainly allowed it. Subsequently I have seen people put disconnects on the outside without pulling a ground to the panel.
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I see a lot of that kind of thing here as well and even from installations done into the 1980's, but there was no inspections for those installations either.
 
kwired said:
But the question here (I think) is was it ever permitted to do so within a building, not for separate buildings? If it was I am guessing it was at least 1950(ish) or earlier, after that you had to use a separate EGC, ranges and clothes dryers were about the only exception, and nobody really knows why they stayed that way for as long as they did - I think it was 1996 - maybe 1999 when they finally changed those.
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You're correct for some reason I was thinking about a separate structure. :slaphead:
 
infinity said:
The exception to allow the use of the grounded conductor for system grounding at a separate structure changed in the 2008 NEC. Prior editions like the 2005 had the exception in 250.32(B).
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So up until the 2008 code changes, if you had a three wire coming to a house supplied from a garage that was a separate structure it was allowable to connect the grounded conductor to the grounding electrode system at the house?
 
gaelectric said:
So up until the 2008 code changes, if you had a three wire coming to a house supplied from a garage that was a separate structure it was allowable to connect the grounded conductor to the grounding electrode system at the house?
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As long as there were no conductive paths between the two buildings i.e. a water pipe, then yes.
 
gaelectric said:
So up until the 2008 code changes, if you had a three wire coming to a house supplied from a garage that was a separate structure it was allowable to connect the grounded conductor to the grounding electrode system at the house?
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House to garage, garage to house, did not matter the key words were "separate structures" You could have had service equipment at a post, pedestal, gazebo, retaining wall, pretty much anything you could call a structure, and still supply other structures with feeders that did not contain an EGC. That went away in 2008, with exception to allow existing installations that were previously compliant.
 
Thanks, Dave. That's what I thought. Appreciate the post. This helps me with a home inspectors report for a guy selling his house whose service was done in that fashion. HI reported that the "sub panel" at the house should have had the neutral isolated.
 
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