No MB in panel

[mannyb]

Customer has a 200a 480v 3ph4w service with disconnect before and after meter outside building. the feeder to panel runs about 100' inside buiding to 1st panel. Is that panel required to have a main breaker or can the panel be feed main lug only?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

If the disconnect outside is on the building then no main breaker is needed. Also one may not need a main breaker if they use the 6 handle rule

230.71 Maximum Number of Disconnects.
(A) General. The service disconnecting means for each service
permitted by 230.2, or for each set of service-entrance
conductors permitted by 230.40, Exception No. 1, 3, 4, or 5,
shall consist of not more than six switches or sets of circuit
breakers, or a combination of not more than six switches and
sets of circuit breakers, mounted in a single enclosure, in a
group of separate enclosures, or in or on a switchboard or in
switchgear. There shall be not more than six sets of disconnects
per service grouped in any one location.

 

[480sparky]

The NEC allows this installation, but local codes may say otherwise. Bin dere, dun dat.

 

[kwired]

If the disconnect outside is on the building then no main breaker is needed. Also one may not need a main breaker if they use the 6 handle rule

even with 6 handle rule, 100 feet of entry into building is likely a problem in most jurisdictions.

If that outside disconnect is not on the building but is in fairly close proximity to the building, some may allow it to be considered the main/service disconnect for the building. Many also will consider conductors inside to be treated as though they are outside if they are in a method that is encased in 2 inches minimum of concrete.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Sure, but it can also be 100' in a slab... we don't know but the op called it a feeder and I assume the main disconnect is on the building. If not then it may be an issue. Until we know more it is guess work

 

[infinity]

What am I missing, the 100' run is a feeder, the service disconnect is on then outside.

 

[Hv&Lv]

Kinda lost myself, the OP said there is a disconnect on both sides of the meter. :?
don’t see that... ever?
i like it, just don’t see that.

 

[electrofelon]

Kinda lost myself, the OP said there is a disconnect on both sides of the meter. :?
don’t see that... ever?
i like it, just don’t see that.

Pretty common on 480 service with self contained meters - POCO requirement for a meter disconnect on line side of meter.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

What am I missing, the 100' run is a feeder, the service disconnect is on then outside.

Could be a feeder to a separate structure.. OP said meter and panel is outside the building-- I assumed he meant on the building so I gave other scenario

 

[charlie b]

There are two different requirements at play here, and only one of them has been mentioned so far. First, every building needs a disconnecting means. Others have mentioned the related requirements. Secondly the panel and its feeder require overcurrent protection. The OP did not mention whether either of the two disconnects (before and after the meter) were fused. If not, then it's a violation for lack of an OCPD protecting the feeder, whether or not the panel has a main breaker.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Charlie if there is no overcurrent protective device outside then are't the wire to the panel inside service conductors.

BTW, we are getting way ahead of ourselves

 

[charlie b]

Check me if I have this wrong, Dennis, but in my way of thinking the service ends at the first disconnecting means, whether or not that device includes overcurrent protection.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Definition of service conductor
Service Conductors. The conductors from the service point to
the service disconnecting means. (CMP-4)

but service equipment includes overcurrent protective device.

Service Equipment. The necessary equipment, usually consisting
of a circuit breaker(s) or switch(es) and fuse(s) and their
accessories, connected to the load end of service conductors to
a building or other structure, or an otherwise designated area,
and intended to constitute the main control and cutoff of the
supply. (CMP-4)

 

[electrofelon]

Check me if I have this wrong, Dennis, but in my way of thinking the service ends at the first disconnecting means, whether or not that device includes overcurrent protection.

We have the requirement that the service disconnect and over current protection be "immediately adjacent thereto", so they cant be that far apart. But say they are different, are the conductors between the service disconnect and OCPD service conductors? I dont have my code book handy to check that. Here is my guess: The OCPD is still "service equipment" so they are still service conductors. Service conductors end at the service equipment, not necessarily the service disconnect. Again, this is off the top of my head, I could be off.

 

[infinity]

I think that we're getting too far off on a tangent, the OP said it was a feeder and made no mention of a separate structure. If it's a feeder the disconnect next to the meter would have an OCPD.

 

[kwired]

I think that we're getting too far off on a tangent, the OP said it was a feeder and made no mention of a separate structure. If it's a feeder the disconnect next to the meter would have an OCPD.

What is not clear is if the service disconnect is on the building in question or on a separate structure. That one detail can clear a lot of the speculations up that have been made.

 

[kwired]

Check me if I have this wrong, Dennis, but in my way of thinking the service ends at the first disconnecting means, whether or not that device includes overcurrent protection.

The service ends at the service disconnecting means (or multiple service disconnecting means where allowed). If the disconnect ahead of meter has no overcurrent protection it doesn't qualify as the service disconnecting means. Also the owner/user must have access to the service disconnect and associated overcurrent devices. These disconnects required ahead of meter by POCO usually are locked so that customer doesn't have easy access to unmetered conductors, therefore an additional qualifying service disconnecting means is needed after the meter