no neutral in sub-panel

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Doing a clubhouse and from the m.d.p. (main dist. panel) to the panel (240 volt) for the pool equipment there is no neutral. just two hots & a ground. My co-workers say it's not code my foreman the biggest hack i know says its fine. who's right?
 
Well, in this case the forman is right, there is no requirement to supply a sub-panel with a neutral.

Your co-workers are probably confusing this with 250.24(C) which does require the neutral be brought to service equipment for fault clearing purposes.

Roger
 
roger said:
Well, in this case the forman is right, there is no requirement to supply a sub-panel with a neutral.
This is, of course, as long as there is no 120v load. The EGC cannot be used to carry any normal current.
 
This is just my opinion and with no specific code reference. I believe your forman and Roger are correct in that a neutral is not required for a sub-panel. If the pool subpanel is originally designed for 240 volt loads only and it is filled to capacity with 2-pole breakers then obviously there is no need for a neutral. However, Larry also brings up a good point about 120 volt loads. Even if the pool panel didn't require any 120 volt loads at the time of installation, if it is left with the capacity for more breakers there may be a situation, at some point in time, to run additional circuits that are 120 volt (i.e pool lights, landscape lights, etc.). If you were the original installer and didn't pull the neutral in you basically stuck the next guy.

Just my 2 cents worth.
 
Although the neutral is not required why would you not install one? As others have said this is a very poor design. Assuming that there may never be a 120 volt load is kind of shortsighted.
 
LarryFine said:
This is, of course, as long as there is no 120v load. The EGC cannot be used to carry any normal current.


If there is lighting in the pool, the voltage would be limited to less than 150V between conductors and I don't know of any transformers for pools with a 240
v primary.
 
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Ray, the EGC is not to carry current of any load, it is only for fault clearing.

Roger
 
RAYMFL said:
If there is lighting in the pool, the voltage would be limited to less than 150V between conductors and I don't know of any transformers for pools with a 240
v primary.

this is a rough we just started and the funny thing is that there is three lights in the pool
 
Kingfah442 said:
this is a rough we just started and the funny thing is that there is three lights in the pool

You did not include that in your first post, if there are 120v loads then a neutral will be necessary, but this is a different situation than saying the NEC requires a neutral at all sub-panels.

Roger
 
roger said:
Ray, the EGC is not to carry current of any load, it is only for fault clearing.

Roger

Sorry, I meant to say that if lighting was going to be installed in the pool, wouldn't a neutral have to be used?
 
Ray, actually I thought that was what you were meaning to say.

Roger
 
I install many panels without a neutral.Often in commercial buildings the need for one is not there.Now as far as someone needing it in future the answer is simple,pay extra and we will gladly pull one.However this might get costly if conduit needs to go up 1 size and copper is not cheap.Ran into a residential problem few years ago.They only wanted 240 for a well pump and while i did my best to get them to run pvc they opted for UF 12-2 wg.Along comes Mr water softner with a need for 120 for plugin low volt transformer.Very costly on them.Sometimes NEC's min. is simply not enough
 
Kingfah442 said:
Doing a clubhouse and from the m.d.p. (main dist. panel) to the panel (240 volt) for the pool equipment there is no neutral. just two hots & a ground. My co-workers say it's not code my foreman the biggest hack i know says its fine. who's right?

Its not about being right.What was speced ?What type of lighting is being installed ?Your foreman is in charge and the owner of your company hired him.If this turns south it will be the foreman getting the blame.Nec does not require neutral.
 
There is no requirement for a grounded conductor to a feeder panel. If one is installed, the 2005 NEC requires it to be sized per table 250.122.
 
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