No place to hang a lock LOTO

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realolman

Senior Member
It seems ridiculous to me that manufacturers are apparently not required to include some "permanent" means of locking out a breaker , that stays on the breaker so it is available at any time.

We have been looking for something to lockout a siemans breaker that could be installed on every breaker in the panel and left there permanently. ( I looked at the type of breaker, thinking I would post about it here, but I am home now and I forget )

We can find things that you can thumbscrew onto the breaker handle, and then apply a lock, but they don't really fit all that great and I think they could fall off pretty easily. I don't believe it is necessary to lock out a breaker if there is no means to do so, and I think it would be pretty easy to just not go to get a locking device, but tape a tag to the breaker. This seems to me to be a totally inadequate LOTO, even though I believe it complies with the rules

I think being able to apply a lock to a breaker in an industrial setting should be important enough that the manufacturers should be required to at least sell as an accessory, something that can be attached to the breaker and have one one each breaker. the handles on this stuff are so paltry anymore that it is even difficult to hang a tag on the dumb things. I really think they sould be required to build something right into the breaker so you don't have to buy an accessory.

There are things that can be put on the smaller frame breakers, but siemans doesn't offer anything for the larger. If they do, I'd appreciate it if some one would direct me. thanks
 
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Strife

Senior Member
It seems ridiculous to me that manufacturers are apparently not required to include some "permanent" means of locking out a breaker , that stays on the breaker so it is available at any time.

We have been looking for something to lockout a siemans breaker that could be installed on every breaker in the panel and left there permanently. ( I looked at the type of breaker, thinking I would post about it here, but I am home now and I forget )

We can find things that you can thumbscrew onto the breaker handle, and then apply a lock, but they don't really fit all that great and I think they could fall off pretty easily. I don't believe it is necessary to lock out a breaker if there is no means to do so, and I think it would be pretty easy to just not go to get a locking device, but tape a tag to the breaker. This seems to me to be a totally inadequate LOTO, even though I believe it complies with the rules

I think being able to apply a lock to a breaker in an industrial setting should be important enough that the manufacturers should be required to at least sell as an accessory, something that can be attached to the breaker and have one one each breaker. the handles on this stuff are so paltry anymore that it is even difficult to hang a tag on the dumb things. I really think they sould be required to build something right into the breaker so you don't have to buy an accessory.

There are things that can be put on the smaller frame breakers, but siemans doesn't offer anything for the larger. If they do, I'd appreciate it if some one would direct me. thanks
There was a test.
Fit geometrical shapes in their respective holes.
The result:
10% were smart.
90% were strong:-(
Seems to me your complain is about "strength", in which case, you could pour a monolith in front of it and SOMEONE will find a way around it.
My best LOTO on a sub panel??
Turn off the breaker, take the wires out, tape them, put the cover back on.
Even if someone was intent on turning that circuit on it'd take quite an effort and time.
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,Ga
Occupation
Field coordinator/ technical support
That's how they can make more money, sell the breaker at a "low" price then run up the cost with all of the extras! There is a whole panel lock out there for sale, but it only works on load centers, most panel boards have hidden cover screws, so it does not work on them. I have invented a panel lock that works on most commercial and industrial panels that have doors, but I have not made it available to the public at large, we use it in house on all of our service trucks and new construction jobs. I have made close to 200 of them so far.
 

realolman

Senior Member
breaker loto.JPG I modified a picture of a breaker to put a place for a lock. Is it really too much to ask that the breakers come from the factory made like this?
 
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Jraef

Moderator
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
View attachment 6940 I modified a picture of a breaker to put a place for a lock. Is it really too much to ask that the breakers come from the factory made like this?
You can get an accessory like that for every Siemens breaker I am aware of. The only cheesy thumbscrew attachment accessory I have seen is the one for resi breakers, and those are not really intended for industrial installations. Assuming you do not have any kind of external operating mechanism, they are all shown on page 7-95 of the Speedfax catalog. The most expensive one is about $15.

26736_l.jpg
 
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hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,Ga
Occupation
Field coordinator/ technical support
We have installed these on most of our panels, warning they aren't cheap.
http://www.powerbloc.com/

Here is a similar product.
http://www.strancoinc.com/circuit-safe-lockout.htm

I agree it would be nice if the panel manufacturers offered something.
Yeah, it's expensive to get even the simplest parts machined, the one part that's not an off the shelf item I use costs $100 at a machine shop, so we just bought a milling machine and make our own. It's already paid for the milling machine.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
View attachment 6940 I modified a picture of a breaker to put a place for a lock. Is it really too much to ask that the breakers come from the factory made like this?
It still needs to be optional or at least removable, collapseable or something. If you are using an external operator for a breaker it may interfere with the operator.

It seems ridiculous to me that manufacturers are apparently not required to include some "permanent" means of locking out a breaker , that stays on the breaker so it is available at any time.

We have been looking for something to lockout a siemans breaker that could be installed on every breaker in the panel and left there permanently. ( I looked at the type of breaker, thinking I would post about it here, but I am home now and I forget )

We can find things that you can thumbscrew onto the breaker handle, and then apply a lock, but they don't really fit all that great and I think they could fall off pretty easily. I don't believe it is necessary to lock out a breaker if there is no means to do so, and I think it would be pretty easy to just not go to get a locking device, but tape a tag to the breaker. This seems to me to be a totally inadequate LOTO, even though I believe it complies with the rules

I think being able to apply a lock to a breaker in an industrial setting should be important enough that the manufacturers should be required to at least sell as an accessory, something that can be attached to the breaker and have one one each breaker. the handles on this stuff are so paltry anymore that it is even difficult to hang a tag on the dumb things. I really think they sould be required to build something right into the breaker so you don't have to buy an accessory.

There are things that can be put on the smaller frame breakers, but siemans doesn't offer anything for the larger. If they do, I'd appreciate it if some one would direct me. thanks
I am not familiar with Siemens industrial panels - specifically the 277/480 units. I know Square D and GE both have padlock attachments that remain on the breaker with or without a lock in place. In situations where NEC allows breaker to be disconnecting means that is required to be lockable you must use this type of device or if not available then that particular breaker is not allowed to be the lockable disconnecting means. I would imagine Siemens would have same type of thing - could be a reason for customers to opt for another brand.
 

realolman

Senior Member
You can get an accessory like that for every Siemens breaker I am aware of. The only cheesy thumbscrew attachment accessory I have seen is the one for resi breakers, and those are not really intended for industrial installations. Assuming you do not have any kind of external operating mechanism, they are all shown on page 7-95 of the Speedfax catalog. The most expensive one is about $15.

View attachment 6941
Thanks.... I will look into this today. The local distributor told us there was nothing. ... and I haven't seen any breakers that look like the kind we have. We have the things shown in the picture
 

Jraef

Moderator
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Thanks.... I will look into this today. The local distributor told us there was nothing. ... and I haven't seen any breakers that look like the kind we have. We have the things shown in the picture
I used to work for Siemens and still have some additional access to information not normally available to everyone, give me a part number for the breaker (or a picture) and I'll see what I can come up with for you.

Side note:
Siemens "inherited" a lot of the old Furnas distributors around the country and many of them have no clue about circuit breakers. So just because he is a "Siemens distributoir" doesn't mean he knows what he is doing.
 
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