Non electrical question but related to contracting

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tonyou812

tonyou812

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North New Jersey
I'm not really much of a "motor" head but can anyone tell me what is the difference between diesel fuel and kerosene? Years ago when i worked for another EC he had all box trucks that were diesel, and sometimes when it was really cold out the fuel would gell up a little and the engine would really struggle to stay on. So the boss told us to put in little kerosene to thin out the diesel fuel, and it worked. well the other day I noticed that kerosene is alot cheaper than diesel, which made me wonder would it be bad to mix the two. Not that I am going to do it but just curious.
 
Kerosene is just another grade of diesel (#1). It burns a bit hotter, and that might foul up some stuff. It might also tear up the injector pump, which relies on the fuel to lubricate it. Kerosene is more of a solvent and road diesel is closer to a lubricant, is why I guess damage to the injector pump.

Nothing wrong with a gallon of kerosene in a full tank in winter. Lots of farmers do that.
 
tonyou812 said:
thanks marc- makes sense, if it was ok to mix 50/50 im sure alot more people would be on to it.
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No tax on that kerosene either. In my area, a lot of people are getting bulk tanks at their house to buy ag diesel for their "farm" and running it in their trucks. They dye the diesel that has had the tax paid a red color, and the ag diesel (off road diesel) is still white/yellow. Ag diesel is a good bit cheaper.
 
I was just work at a fuel tank farm. The guy there told me the get two shipments in the same pipe gas and diesel, what they do with that at the tank farm is up to the individual oil company. He said they fill a pipe with gas and send it then insert a PIG basically a plug and then ship diesel.
 
tonyou812 said:
I'm not really much of a "motor" head but can anyone tell me what is the difference between diesel fuel and kerosene? Years ago when i worked for another EC he had all box trucks that were diesel, and sometimes when it was really cold out the fuel would gell up a little and the engine would really struggle to stay on. So the boss told us to put in little kerosene to thin out the diesel fuel, and it worked. well the other day I noticed that kerosene is alot cheaper than diesel, which made me wonder would it be bad to mix the two. Not that I am going to do it but just curious.
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You can try it, but if your vehicle has a warranty on it, well, it won't after that! Your best bet with diesel and a warranty is to use something like Power Service or Lucas Diesel treatments to keep it from gelling. Don't forget to get a block heater and / or a battery heater, and turn your key to the on position and wait for the dig to stop and / or the light to go off.

Either way, good luck!
 
I'm going to disagree with MD on this one. Diesel #2 has a slightly higher btu content.

http://www.gulfoilandgas.com/Webpro1/Oil/approxEnergyContent.asp


Here the off road fuel and kerosene are died red, not the over the road fuel. The die stays in the tank for a while also. If the DOT catches you with die in your tank it's a steep fine, $5000 IIRC.

NC DOT likes to set at a local stockyard and check farmers as they come in and out. I don't know if they have caught many violators but everyone is scared to run died fuel in their trucks now.
 
mdshunk said:
No tax on that kerosene either. In my area, a lot of people are getting bulk tanks at their house to buy ag diesel for their "farm" and running it in their trucks. They dye the diesel that has had the tax paid a red color, and the ag diesel (off road diesel) is still white/yellow. Ag diesel is a good bit cheaper.
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I think we're paying about $0.40/gal less for ag diesel than what you pay at the pump. The federal highway tax is subtracted. I think its part excise tax and part percentage so it varies.

We used to all drive diesel trucks so we could run 'red' diesel, but the IRS started cracking down on it. They have unmarked patrol cars and make random traffic stops on diesel vehicles to check the fuel. They were in town here just a few weeks ago making stops. It really catches you off guard when a guy stops you and flashes his IRS badge.

Its something like a $10k fine and federal felony tax evasion if you get caught with it, but most every farmer (including myself) insures their vehicle as a farm/highway use vehicle, but the way I understand it they can challenge you on that if it doesn't appear to be a farm use vehicle; like my brother's VW jetta that has been known to be topped off with red diesel.
 
DanZ said:
Are you sure it's not more? I didn't think AG diesel was ULS.
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You're right its not ULS; I haven't looked at the per gallon cost on the invoices lately, but I don't remember the price being significantly lower than what it costs at the pump. I've got to go pick up a fax at the office in a few minutes; i'll see if I can put my hands on an invoice and see exactly what it was.
 
well i couldn't find an invoice. there was a fuel delivery ticket on the pump for 900 gallons from last week, so another invoice should be here in a couple of days.
 
tonyou812 said:
I'm not really much of a "motor" head but can anyone tell me what is the difference between diesel fuel and kerosene? Years ago when i worked for another EC he had all box trucks that were diesel, and sometimes when it was really cold out the fuel would gell up a little and the engine would really struggle to stay on. So the boss told us to put in little kerosene to thin out the diesel fuel, and it worked. well the other day I noticed that kerosene is alot cheaper than diesel, which made me wonder would it be bad to mix the two. Not that I am going to do it but just curious.
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it's about the viscosity of #1 diesel, so if you are in alaska or something,
you probably could run it during the winter..... but the cost differential
isn't worth killing your injector pump. it doesn't have the lubrication ability
of #2 diesel.

even further off topic is the subject of running your diesel rig on
CNG. there's a guy in ohio who makes hybrid kits to run off CNG
and diesel at the same time. i'm running an E-350 with a diesel,
and it would drop my fuel costs about 70% in calif. the only reason
i am not running it is that tanks are unavailable since Utah locked
their CNG price at 65 cents a gallon, and everyone is converting,
and creating a shortage of tanks. you are using two fuels at the
same time, you are getting about 25 MPG on the CNG, and 60 MPG
on the diesel. and about 100 extra horsepower at the rear wheels.
as my rolling weight is about 10,000 lbs, it'd sure help.

without any engine, smog, or computer changes, by the way.
if interested, email me privately, and i'll send you the guys contact info.

sorry for drifting off topic, but i'm weak.... :)


randy
 
Here in ny kero is not dyed like hh oil it does burn a little hotter than hhoil dyed red and it is 50 cents cheaper than diesel without the road tax. I do believe you can mix some into diesel without serious consequence however as home heating fuel it is win win because it burns hotter so it shuts off sooner I am told and It does not have the road tax on it.
 
brantmacga said:
You're right its not ULS; I haven't looked at the per gallon cost on the invoices lately, but I don't remember the price being significantly lower than what it costs at the pump. I've got to go pick up a fax at the office in a few minutes; i'll see if I can put my hands on an invoice and see exactly what it was.
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Well, I just talked to a friend of mine who works on Cats for a living, and he told me it's not required to be ULS, yet. That's coming in 2010. However, he believes most companies only make one grade and dye part of it.

For some reason, I was under the impression that ULS was one of the big reasons diesel was more expensive than gas.
 
brantmacga said:
well i couldn't find an invoice. there was a fuel delivery ticket on the pump for 900 gallons from last week, so another invoice should be here in a couple of days.
Click to expand...


It was $3.52/gal
 
DanZ said:
Well, I just talked to a friend of mine who works on Cats for a living, and he told me it's not required to be ULS, yet. That's coming in 2010. However, he believes most companies only make one grade and dye part of it.

For some reason, I was under the impression that ULS was one of the big reasons diesel was more expensive than gas.
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I don't remember all of the allowed sulfur numbers right now, but the refinery where I work put in a gas hydrotreater and a diesel hydrotreater at about the same time just a few years ago. They both have the same purpose - to remove sulfur from the fuel. This was a big part of why the cost of gas went up so much in the past 6-8 years. It's not just high demand from India and China, it's also the EPA requirements here.

I'll have to check at work on Monday, but I'm pretty sure we ship just one grade of diesel, not a separate road diesel and ag diesel. Gas is similar. We make 25% of the gas used in Ohio regardless of the brand name. The difference comes in when the truck drivers load their semi - they select the BP, Shell, or whatever additive package that is mixed with the gas as it is loaded. Or if they're taking fuel to Sam's Club, Kroger, or a store without
an oil company name they load generic gas without an additive package - that's why it can be a few cents cheaper.
 
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