non grounded receptacles

[g1051h]

there are several receptacles in this house that are not grounded. There is no ground wire in fed into the box either. Reading the 1993 NEC book, 210-7(d) suggests using GFIs to protect the circuit and bring it up to code. Is this correct?

What about bridging the neutral terminal to the green screw terminal on the receptacle to ground it. What are the problems with doing that?

 

[ryan_618]

Re: non grounded receptacles

GFCI

 

[rasmithircgov.com]

Re: non grounded receptacles

Here is how it reads in 2002 NEC.
406.3(D)(3) Nongrounding-Type Receptacles. Where grounding means does not exist in the receptacle enclosure, the installation shall comply with (a), (b), or (c).
(a) A nongrounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with another nongrounding-type receptacle(s).
(b) A nongrounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a ground-fault circuit interrupter-type of receptacle(s). These receptacles shall be marked ?No Equipment Ground.? An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected from the ground-fault circuit-interrupter-type receptacle to any outlet supplied from the ground-fault circuit-interrupter receptacle.
(c) A nongrounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle(s) where supplied through a ground-fault circuit interrupter. Grounding-type receptacles supplied through the ground-fault circuit interrupter shall be marked ?GFCI Protected? and ?No Equipment Ground.? An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected between the grounding-type receptacles.

 

[stew]

Re: non grounded receptacles

G1051h ok so you gound the neutral to the ground post eh? Think about that for a moment. When you plug in a metal case appliance wher is the neutral now attached? To the metal case right? Now you turn on the appliance and all is good until you perhaps touch this metal case with the GROUNDED CONDUCTOR attached to it. You then become the conductor to ground and have a shocking experience!!! kapish?

 

[bill addiss]

Re: non grounded receptacles

What about bridging the neutral terminal to the green screw terminal on the receptacle to ground it. What are the problems with doing that?

This is not a new idea. If the Codewriters thought that was safe they would have included that option too. Don't do it.

 

[Ed MacLaren]

Re: non grounded receptacles

You then become the conductor to ground and have a shocking experience!

Actually, the neutral conductor should be grounded at the service, so the only voltage one would feel would be a portion of the voltage drop in the neutral conductor.

But, it's still not good practice, and it's not permitted in most jurasdictions.

Ed

[ March 20, 2004, 09:42 PM: Message edited by: Ed MacLaren ]

 

[bennie]

Re: non grounded receptacles

What is the danger in doing this?

 

[iwire]

Re: non grounded receptacles

Originally posted by bennie:
What is the danger in doing this?

Nothing :roll:

Your right Bennie, both the Canadian code and the NEC are all wrong. :roll:

The CMPs are made up of evil people bent on requiring installations to be unsafe, we should ignore the rules.

 

[bennie]

Re: non grounded receptacles

I asked a reasonable question. I expect a reasonable answer. There is a definite reason for not allowing the neutral conductor to be connected to the ground terminal, I only want to know if anyone knows the reason.

I don't need attitude at every post I make.

 

[websparky]

Re: non grounded receptacles

What is the danger in doing this?

You just found out!

Given your past posting practices, most of us will take this kind of questions as an invitation to an old arguement.

 

[stew]

Re: non grounded receptacles

hey Ed I have been on the loosing end of this voltage drop a few more times than Id like to have been and believe me its no fun.was under an old metal trailer one time that had an outlet with the hot and neutral swapped too. Nice and sweaty and alsmost didnt want to move after the first shock!!

 

[Ed MacLaren]

Re: non grounded receptacles

About the only way to get a shock from a grounded (neutral) conductor that is properly grounded, is to open it while it is carrying load current, and getting yourself across the "open ends".
That puts you in series with the load, and you would be exposed to full circuit voltage, minus the voltage drop in the load.

Been there, done that.

Ed

[ March 20, 2004, 09:44 PM: Message edited by: Ed MacLaren ]

 

[bennie]

Re: non grounded receptacles

Stew has given the reason for not using the neutral to ground a receptacle. Homeowners may reverse the polarity when changing receptacles.

When there is a ground wire, the reversal is not so dangerous.

Now is this argumentive?

 

[pierre]

Re: non grounded receptacles

In a two wire circuit, there will be current flow on the return neutral conductor. If the conductor is attached to the frame, current can potentially flow through the frame.
A person now touches that same frame and completes a path to ground which will cause current to flow through the affected parts of his/her body. It takes very little current to cause the heart to go into ventricular fibrulation - which can be fatal.
or
A shock could occur, which upon reaction to the shock a person may injure themselves as well.

Those two wire circuits are not required to be changed, unless work is being performed on those circuits.

Pierre

 

[stew]

Re: non grounded receptacles

I can tell you one thing pierre I sure as heck came out from under that trailer in a huryy without touching anything more til I finally found the problem. If I had rolled over and wedged myself to the frame I would probably not be writing this .

 

[hurk27]

Re: non grounded receptacles

By Bennie: Stew has given the reason for not using the neutral to ground a receptacle. Homeowners may reverse the polarity when changing receptacles

I was called to a house where the home owner was complaining about getting a shock when she touched the freezer in the garage. When I plugged in my three light tester it read ok. but using an extension cord to a known good receptacle with my Wiggy I found both the neutral and the ground hot. after chasing through a few receptacles I found where the neutral to ground bond was made but the neutral was still hot so after checking the connection at the ceiling fixture I found that the neutral and hot had been reversed. It was something to look for. I had to run a new feed from the panel as the circuit was over loaded any way they also had a 30 amp breaker on this circuit.

 

[iwire]

Re: non grounded receptacles

With a properly wired circuit, if the hot or neutral between the outlet and the source gets broken (an open), the outlet stops working.

In this properly wired outlet if the ground becomes open the outlet still works with no grounding means, not a great situation but not immediately dangerous. No different from the old two wire circuits in use in many homes. A second fault would need to happen before this in itself is dangerous.

Originally posted by g1051h:
What about bridging the neutral terminal to the green screw terminal on the receptacle to ground it. What are the problems with doing that?

An outlet wired this way, if this neutral/grounding conductor becomes open anywhere between the source (or bond depending on the condition of the grounding system) and the outlet the outlet will stop working but also the enclosure / case of whatever is plugged in becomes 'Hot'.

If a person now touches this enclosure and is grounded they will become the neutral conductor, they will be in series with the load.

To me this is immediately dangerous, along with the reasons of voltage drop and code rules makes using the neutral as the grounding means not an option.

[ March 21, 2004, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]