Non Metalic Boxes
- Thread starter edwin1
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Non Metalic Boxes
If you mean just twisting them with no wirenut or crimp that is a violation for any type of box
If you mean just twisting them with no wirenut or crimp that is a violation for any type of box
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Non Metalic Boxes
Good point, I think that is still OK, probably tough to do in a non-metallic box.
Good point, I think that is still OK, probably tough to do in a non-metallic box.
luke warmwater
Senior Member
Re: Non Metalic Boxes
110.14(B) covers splices.
To use solder, the splice 'shall first be spliced or joined so as to be mechanically and electrically secure without solder and then be soldered.'
So, what would be the pourpose of using solder on the grounds at this point.
110.14(B) covers splices.
To use solder, the splice 'shall first be spliced or joined so as to be mechanically and electrically secure without solder and then be soldered.'
So, what would be the pourpose of using solder on the grounds at this point.
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: Non Metalic Boxes
Grounding conductors cannot be soldered.
250.8
Grounding conductors cannot be soldered.
250.8
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Non Metalic Boxes
Peter I do not see that 250.8 says that.
Peter I do not see that 250.8 says that.
by Luke
I am not sure, as soldering was before my time but I think simply twisting the wires together first, then soldering would be OK. This is just how the old ones where done that I opened.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Non Metalic Boxes
It boils down to the question of whether soldering is a "listed means" for making that type of connection. I learned to solder before I learned Ohm?s Law. But I do not know the answer to that question.
I tend to agree with Peter D?s interpretation. If you were to twist two wires together, then walk away, you would have neither a good mechanical connection nor a good electrical connection. If you then soldered the twisted wires, it would be the solder, and only the solder, that establishes a good mechanical and electrical connection. I believe that 250.8 would not allow that for grounding or bonding wires.
It boils down to the question of whether soldering is a "listed means" for making that type of connection. I learned to solder before I learned Ohm?s Law. But I do not know the answer to that question.
I tend to agree with Peter D?s interpretation. If you were to twist two wires together, then walk away, you would have neither a good mechanical connection nor a good electrical connection. If you then soldered the twisted wires, it would be the solder, and only the solder, that establishes a good mechanical and electrical connection. I believe that 250.8 would not allow that for grounding or bonding wires.
hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
Re: Non Metalic Boxes
I would say that the conductors are mechanically and electrically secure when twisted- just not for very long. Corrosion, vibration and movement of the wires can cause the connection to fail. Soldering after twisting solves these problems and serves the same purpose as a wire nut.
I say it is allowed but who would want to do it?
-Hal
I would say that the conductors are mechanically and electrically secure when twisted- just not for very long. Corrosion, vibration and movement of the wires can cause the connection to fail. Soldering after twisting solves these problems and serves the same purpose as a wire nut.
I say it is allowed but who would want to do it?
-Hal
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Non Metalic Boxes
Please read 250.8 again
Part of 250.8
I do not see that it has anything to do with conductors twisted together then soldered.
No I do not want to soldering my connections
Please read 250.8 again
Part of 250.8
This section is only talking about solder as it relates to devices or fittings.
I do not see that it has anything to do with conductors twisted together then soldered.
No I do not want to soldering my connections
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: Non Metalic Boxes
Bob,
Ok, going by the exact letter of the code I will concede that you could be correct. I think the intent of this section is to disallow solder for all grounding and bonding connections, but intent is worthless if the words aren't there.
As Charlie said, is solder a "listed means" of connection? I don't know either.
Bob,
Ok, going by the exact letter of the code I will concede that you could be correct. I think the intent of this section is to disallow solder for all grounding and bonding connections, but intent is worthless if the words aren't there.
As Charlie said, is solder a "listed means" of connection? I don't know either.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Non Metalic Boxes
What I will argue for here many times has nothing to do with how I wire.
[ August 25, 2004, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
Well you better throw out the green 'grounding' screws cause those ain't listed either.
What I will argue for here many times has nothing to do with how I wire.
[ August 25, 2004, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: Non Metalic Boxes
Bob,
I can't see your company allowing solder anyway.
By the way, I knew of a contractor in our area that was still soldering all their connections.
Bob,
Yeah, I know you like to get a good discussion going. It helps us all learn something.
I can't see your company allowing solder anyway.
By the way, I knew of a contractor in our area that was still soldering all their connections.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Non Metalic Boxes
If you use a micro ohm meter a twisted and soldered joint will have a higher resistance than an twisted joint. This is because the conductivity of the solder is less than that of copper and in a correctly made joint the solder will completely coat each conductor. As Hal, said the only purpose of the solder is to keep the joint intact over time.
That being said, it was a common practice in this area to just twist the bare EGC conductors together in the boxes in this area. Most of the installers who did this would have the conductors twisted together for at least two inches and leave on long tail to go to the device. No, this does not meet the code, but it was a common practice in this area.
Don
If you use a micro ohm meter a twisted and soldered joint will have a higher resistance than an twisted joint. This is because the conductivity of the solder is less than that of copper and in a correctly made joint the solder will completely coat each conductor. As Hal, said the only purpose of the solder is to keep the joint intact over time.
That being said, it was a common practice in this area to just twist the bare EGC conductors together in the boxes in this area. Most of the installers who did this would have the conductors twisted together for at least two inches and leave on long tail to go to the device. No, this does not meet the code, but it was a common practice in this area.
Don
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- engineer
Re: Non Metalic Boxes
most of the outlets in my home were done this way as well. If I have reason to work on them I put a wire nut on them.
I also noticed a fair number that were not even connected to the box. i have fixed a few of those as well.
BTW - I found the electrical inspection sticker still stapled to a 2x4 in a wall in the bathroom while remodeling. Signed and nothing mentioned about either situation.
most of the outlets in my home were done this way as well. If I have reason to work on them I put a wire nut on them.
I also noticed a fair number that were not even connected to the box. i have fixed a few of those as well.
BTW - I found the electrical inspection sticker still stapled to a 2x4 in a wall in the bathroom while remodeling. Signed and nothing mentioned about either situation.
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