Non qualified workers on construction crews

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hockeyoligist2

hockeyoligist2

Senior Member
Location
close to greenville sc
Not sure this is the right place to post this.

I'm getting a little tired of Non qualified workers on construction crews!

I wish I had of had my camera so I could show a picture. OK, I hope I can explain correctly.

Friday, at a new sewer plant that we have, I got a call saying 2 breakers were tripping. They are long underground runs and pass thru big manholes (8'x8'x6'). Then they divide up and go different directions.

When I found the right manhole (smoke coming out where the operator reset the breaker).

All of the wires coming thru (separate conduits) were bundled together with wire ties. A mixture of about 60 wires # 12 thru #00, 480V, 120V, 24V, and signal wires. In the middle of this bundle was my short! Think it was an over heating problem???

I am going back next week and separate them into smaller bundles and I will take my camera so I can post it here!
 
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Bob NH

Senior Member
Location
The "Live Free or Die" State
Non-qualified doesn't always mean non-licensed.

That kind of thing should have an engineering design that specifies how the cables should be supported.

One of the things that I have seen in large construction projects is that a lot of things are shown as schematics, line drawings, specifications, and tables; and it is expected that the installation will be made by people who know what they are doing. That process will result in serious screwups if there are not qualified inspectors on the job who are not being paid, salary or under the table, by the contractor.
 
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shelton

Member
I agree an inspector is suposed to inspect to the plans and i fine it hard to believe that and engineer would spec bundling all of those wires together. The job should have been failed.
 
tallgirl

tallgirl

Senior Member
Location
Glendale, WI
Occupation
Controls Systems firmware engineer
hockeyoligist2 said:
I agree George, but they had 4 nice plastic racks in each manhole. There was plenty of space to seperate them. They only used one.
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They were trying to save money? Allow for future expansion?
 
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edamico11

Senior Member
Location
NJ
It's not always the workers fault...

It's not always the workers fault...

It sounds like the worker was just trying to do a neat job. He, naturally, did not realize he was causing harm + violations. An engineer who designs plans should put as much info on the drawing as possible. An arrow with " wires not to be bundled together" would have done nicely in this case. However, the inspector should have noticed this mess right from the word go also. My point, we can't always blame the installer, we as design professionals should take some of the blame.
 
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Bob NH

Senior Member
Location
The "Live Free or Die" State
edamico11 said:
It sounds like the worker was just trying to do a neat job. He, naturally, did not realize he was causing harm + violations. An engineer who designs plans should put as much info on the drawing as possible. An arrow with " wires not to be bundled together" would have done nicely in this case. However, the inspector should have noticed this mess right from the word go also. My point, we can't always blame the installer, we as design professionals should take some of the blame.
Click to expand...
It's all a matter of economics. They don't want to pay engineers to draw pretty pictures of wires in vaults.

There is a big difference in the practice of engineering between making a drawing for a circuit board for a manufacturer who is going to make thousands of them, and the engineering for one-off construction projects.

The drawing or specification probably says somewhere that the installation is to be per the NEC or some other requirement. If the drawings showed every detail, nobody would be able to carry the plans and nobody would look at all of them.

Real electricians are supposed to know and apply the code. That is why they are required to be licensed. And real electricians don't want to have to measure out locations of wires and fasteners to conform to some drawing made by an engineer or draftsman who has never seen a wire in a vault. They know what has to be done to meet the code and should do it.

Real inspectors are also supposed to know the code and are supposed to really inspect; that is, get down into the vault and verify that the installation conforms to drawings AND to the code.
 
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edamico11

Senior Member
Location
NJ
Bob,,

Bob,,

Yes,, bob everything you say is, of course, true. However, these days you never know who is doing the installation of your projects. Me, and everyone who draws for me, includes the small details. It does not take that long, hell in AutoCad we just set up most small spec's as blocks and just add them in the final review. The cost is small, especially when you think of the cost involved in repairing a mistake. Most people, licensed or unlicensed, want to do a good job all I'm saying is that we should give them as many tools as possible to do that job.
 
brian john

brian john

Senior Member
Location
Leesburg, VA
I have seen jobs were the engineer and on site inspector wanted bundling. I have also seen jobs were the specs are not inforced by the engineer or inspector.

Engineers and inspectors are no different than electricians some are top notch and others are middle of the road, then there are the slackers.
 
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