jtb
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
I've heard many times that the NEC is not an instruction/design manual.
What is ??
What is ??
Not an instruction manual
- Thread starter jtb
- Start date
- Status
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: Not an instruction manual
Instruction manuals are . . . HMMM. A lot of people are making a living writing and selling instruction manuals (books). Our host, Mike Holt plus Ray Mullin, **** Loyd, IEEE, NECA, etc. (the list is very long) are all writing instruction, training, and design manuals and standards. These materials are used in apprenticeship classes, for exam preparation, for furthering your own knowledge base, for reference, for help with design work, etc.
Instruction manuals are . . . HMMM. A lot of people are making a living writing and selling instruction manuals (books). Our host, Mike Holt plus Ray Mullin, **** Loyd, IEEE, NECA, etc. (the list is very long) are all writing instruction, training, and design manuals and standards. These materials are used in apprenticeship classes, for exam preparation, for furthering your own knowledge base, for reference, for help with design work, etc.
jtb
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
Re: Not an instruction manual
I guess there are a lot of resources, but to purchase the resources necessary to do a comprehensive design would literally cost a fortune. If I do not have a financial backer, how can I truly gain this knowledge? And I do not have the time to learn by mistakes or work under a tutor, I am already working 40+ hours a week not including the 3 hours/day drive time.
I know this is a crazy question, but how have you guys learned all of this, and how can I pick it up fast? I am doing design now, and I have found it amazingly hard to assure code compliance and common sense material selection in a timely fashion by hunting through the NEC and other resources. My experience has taught me many valuable rules of thumb, but those don't hold up in court!
I guess there are a lot of resources, but to purchase the resources necessary to do a comprehensive design would literally cost a fortune. If I do not have a financial backer, how can I truly gain this knowledge? And I do not have the time to learn by mistakes or work under a tutor, I am already working 40+ hours a week not including the 3 hours/day drive time.
I know this is a crazy question, but how have you guys learned all of this, and how can I pick it up fast? I am doing design now, and I have found it amazingly hard to assure code compliance and common sense material selection in a timely fashion by hunting through the NEC and other resources. My experience has taught me many valuable rules of thumb, but those don't hold up in court!
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Not an instruction manual
What exactly is it that you are hoping to ?pick up fast??
If it?s NEC, then you can start by clicking over to Mike Holt?s home page, and shop there. You can also search on-line or using the old-fashion way (yellow pages), looking for training classes.
If it?s ?how to design,? I know of no books that offer instruction in that topic. You can visit the reference desk at your local public library, since finding books and information is what they do for a living. In addition, many libraries (in Western Washington, California, Ohio, Maryland, Kansas, and yes, PA, to name a few areas) offer 24/7 access to a reference librarian. Try typing ?24/7 library? in your browser?s search engine, and see where it leads you.
It seems to me that you are looking for a change in career, that you want to be doing something other (i.e., better) than you do in your present ?40+ hours a week, not including driving.? I would call that a noble and honorable endeavor. The only advice I will offer is the same I have been given, and the same I have given to others: Looking for a job (or in your case, a career enhancement) is itself a full-time-job. If you put into it anything less than a full effort, applying less than all of your free time, then your results are likely to be less than you could wish.
Good luck.
Charlie
What exactly is it that you are hoping to ?pick up fast??
If it?s NEC, then you can start by clicking over to Mike Holt?s home page, and shop there. You can also search on-line or using the old-fashion way (yellow pages), looking for training classes.
If it?s ?how to design,? I know of no books that offer instruction in that topic. You can visit the reference desk at your local public library, since finding books and information is what they do for a living. In addition, many libraries (in Western Washington, California, Ohio, Maryland, Kansas, and yes, PA, to name a few areas) offer 24/7 access to a reference librarian. Try typing ?24/7 library? in your browser?s search engine, and see where it leads you.
It seems to me that you are looking for a change in career, that you want to be doing something other (i.e., better) than you do in your present ?40+ hours a week, not including driving.? I would call that a noble and honorable endeavor. The only advice I will offer is the same I have been given, and the same I have given to others: Looking for a job (or in your case, a career enhancement) is itself a full-time-job. If you put into it anything less than a full effort, applying less than all of your free time, then your results are likely to be less than you could wish.
Good luck.
Charlie
Re: Not an instruction manual
JTB, I wished there was a book out there that covered all the design aspects. But to my knowledge it does not exist. I know it?s clich?, but an education is not cheap. It just takes time and experience to acquire the knowledge and resources. There are no shortcuts. If you look at the profiles of members you respect, you will probable notice they have been in the business for a long time. There is no substitute for proper education and experience. Good luck. Dereck
JTB, I wished there was a book out there that covered all the design aspects. But to my knowledge it does not exist. I know it?s clich?, but an education is not cheap. It just takes time and experience to acquire the knowledge and resources. There are no shortcuts. If you look at the profiles of members you respect, you will probable notice they have been in the business for a long time. There is no substitute for proper education and experience. Good luck. Dereck
Re: Not an instruction manual
I don't understand how you are doing design work and admittedly do not know how.
Designing is a skill and not square one in electrical technology.
It takes years, and a lot of studying, to be a competant designer.
Plan on learning the fundamentals and investing in a lot of reference material.
I don't understand how you are doing design work and admittedly do not know how.
Designing is a skill and not square one in electrical technology.
It takes years, and a lot of studying, to be a competant designer.
Plan on learning the fundamentals and investing in a lot of reference material.
Re: Not an instruction manual
JTB, even though we as electricians do design to an extent, and in some cases work as a team with engineers, we can not stamp designs, so even with the knowledge, experience, literature etc... you are still limited to what you can legally do.
You could seek employment as a "designer" under an engineer, but this is back to working under a tutor.
Of course I'm not in PA, so if the above doesn't apply never mind.
Roger
JTB, even though we as electricians do design to an extent, and in some cases work as a team with engineers, we can not stamp designs, so even with the knowledge, experience, literature etc... you are still limited to what you can legally do.
You could seek employment as a "designer" under an engineer, but this is back to working under a tutor.
Of course I'm not in PA, so if the above doesn't apply never mind.
Roger
jtb
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
Re: Not an instruction manual
Bennie, I know the basics. I guess I should mention that I have 3 years of engineering in controls and instrumentation. I also have a BSEE.
I am new to the commercial engineering field.
I need to jump start into it, I am a year or so away from being able to stamp drawings.
Bennie, I know the basics. I guess I should mention that I have 3 years of engineering in controls and instrumentation. I also have a BSEE.
I am new to the commercial engineering field.
I need to jump start into it, I am a year or so away from being able to stamp drawings.
jtb
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
Re: Not an instruction manual
I guess I should update my profile, but I am lazy.
I guess I should update my profile, but I am lazy.
tvgaconsultants
Member
Re: Not an instruction manual
jtb, from one engineer to another. Designing anything is how you approach and solve the problem that is presented to you. The knowlegde is through experinces and tapping the knowlegde that is available (ie this forum). I also know of no book that is "how to design!" If your an expereinced electrician who now is an engineer, design is all about how to do what ever better and not make the same old mistakes .
jtb, from one engineer to another. Designing anything is how you approach and solve the problem that is presented to you. The knowlegde is through experinces and tapping the knowlegde that is available (ie this forum). I also know of no book that is "how to design!" If your an expereinced electrician who now is an engineer, design is all about how to do what ever better and not make the same old mistakes
.jtb
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
Re: Not an instruction manual
Bennie,
For a PE license, you have to do this....
http://www.ncees.org/licensure/licensure_for_engineers/#how
Bennie,
For a PE license, you have to do this....
http://www.ncees.org/licensure/licensure_for_engineers/#how
plechtenberg
Member
Re: Not an instruction manual
jtb,
Welcome to the commercial engineering realm. Unfortunately, there is no single good design book, just as there is no good single design philosophy. A quote from an engineering 101 book I used to teach, ?Engineering is both an art and a science?. If your BSEE program was like mine, it taught you very little in the commercial area. Most programs are geared towards telecommunication and even if they are power related, they are more theory than practice and have little to do with commercial building construction. As you know, part of the requirement for licensure as a Professional Engineer is experience (typically under a current Professional Engineer). A good mentor is the best way to learn design (in addition to this forum of course). Keep your eyes and ears open and always be ready to learn, not only a better design, but also sometimes how NOT to design. You often learn the most from the ?bad? projects. Good Luck.
jtb,
Welcome to the commercial engineering realm. Unfortunately, there is no single good design book, just as there is no good single design philosophy. A quote from an engineering 101 book I used to teach, ?Engineering is both an art and a science?. If your BSEE program was like mine, it taught you very little in the commercial area. Most programs are geared towards telecommunication and even if they are power related, they are more theory than practice and have little to do with commercial building construction. As you know, part of the requirement for licensure as a Professional Engineer is experience (typically under a current Professional Engineer). A good mentor is the best way to learn design (in addition to this forum of course). Keep your eyes and ears open and always be ready to learn, not only a better design, but also sometimes how NOT to design. You often learn the most from the ?bad? projects. Good Luck.
jtb
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
Re: Not an instruction manual
plechtenberg
You are correct, I learned a great deal in college, much of which does not apply. I don't think anything was mentioned about codes, standards, etc.
My point is I don't WANT to make mistakes!
I don't want to have some print that gives the electricians headaches. I don't want change orders. I don't want legal actions.
plechtenberg
You are correct, I learned a great deal in college, much of which does not apply. I don't think anything was mentioned about codes, standards, etc.
My point is I don't WANT to make mistakes!
I don't want to have some print that gives the electricians headaches. I don't want change orders. I don't want legal actions.
Re: Not an instruction manual
JTB, now I know where you're coming from.
As far as this,
Now,
There will be contingensy funds in all jobs to cover the change orders and if you are dealing with reputable contractors all should be fair. (note, I said should be)
You will have to have E&O insurance to cover some mistakes as you know, to cover the legal end.
Best of luck
Roger
JTB, now I know where you're coming from.
this is to be admired, but remember those who don't make mistakes aren't doing anything and actually making a heavier work load for those who are.
As far as this,
you will find both of you can cause headaches for each other unless you work together and then they become opportunities for solutions. (remember my statement of working as a team)
Now,
unfortunately these are the nature of the beast.
There will be contingensy funds in all jobs to cover the change orders and if you are dealing with reputable contractors all should be fair. (note, I said should be)
You will have to have E&O insurance to cover some mistakes as you know, to cover the legal end.
Best of luck
Roger
Re: Not an instruction manual
JTB, I agree with Rogers?s last post. Every job you do will have mistakes. Last time I checked GOD is not a PE. Point is, experience gains references, confidence and knowledge, and experience takes time. No substitutes. Good luck. Dereck
JTB, I agree with Rogers?s last post. Every job you do will have mistakes. Last time I checked GOD is not a PE.
Point is, experience gains references, confidence and knowledge, and experience takes time. No substitutes. Good luck. Dereck
jxofaltrds
Inspector Mike®
- Location
- Mike P. Columbus Ohio
- Occupation
- ESI, PI, RBO
Re: Not an instruction manual
Since I do not design electrical systems I am a little confused on this post.
I know residential is simple. But don't you ask your client what they want before you start?
And don't you design for future work? 90.8
I hope I am not insulting anyone by trying to make this simple.
90.1(C) Intention........ "for untrained persons."
Mike P.
Since I do not design electrical systems I am a little confused on this post.
I know residential is simple. But don't you ask your client what they want before you start?
And don't you design for future work? 90.8
I hope I am not insulting anyone by trying to make this simple.
90.1(C) Intention........ "for untrained persons."
Mike P.
jtb
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
Re: Not an instruction manual
I always ask the client what they want. Unfortunately, the ones making the decisions are usually not the ones who know what they want.
I always design for future contingencies, and even overdesign on occasion depending on the clients propensity for adding load.
I always ask the client what they want. Unfortunately, the ones making the decisions are usually not the ones who know what they want.
I always design for future contingencies, and even overdesign on occasion depending on the clients propensity for adding load.
- Status