One of our inspectors tagged an electrician for having 13 outlets (receptacle and lighting-not counting switches) on a single 15amp circuit feeding bedrooms (arc fault protected). There seems to be a conflict of interpretation between Article 220.3(B)(9) and 220.3 (B)(10). We are on the 2002 NEC. I told them that I would get a consensus from the panel of experts that are at our disposal here. Please express your thoughts on this and I will present your comments to both the inspector and the electrician.
Number of receptacle and lighting outlets on 15amp circu
- Thread starter wwebb
- Start date
- Status
Re: Number of receptacle and lighting outlets on 15amp circu
IMO,I would say (10) max.
10x180=1800/120=15.
P.S If #12 wire was used the breaker could be changed out to a 20 amp and then (13) should be ok.180x13=2340/120=19.5
I'm sorry not for dwelling units.
[ September 10, 2004, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: jap2525 ]
IMO,I would say (10) max.
10x180=1800/120=15.
P.S If #12 wire was used the breaker could be changed out to a 20 amp and then (13) should be ok.180x13=2340/120=19.5
I'm sorry not for dwelling units.
[ September 10, 2004, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: jap2525 ]
Re: Number of receptacle and lighting outlets on 15amp circu
This topic has been covered several times in this forum, but here goes anyway.
The outlets in question would fall under 220.3(B)(10). Therefore, as stated in the first sentence of 220.3(B)(9), that section does not apply. There is no code section that I am aware of that assigns 180 volt-amperes (or any other value) to the general purpose receptacles in a residence. I don't think there is a code section that your inspector could cite to back up the 13 outlets ruling, or any other specific number of general purpose outlets on a residential circuit. In a residince, the code regulates the minimum number of general purpose circuits that must be provided, but not the number of outlets on those circuits.
This topic has been covered several times in this forum, but here goes anyway.
The outlets in question would fall under 220.3(B)(10). Therefore, as stated in the first sentence of 220.3(B)(9), that section does not apply. There is no code section that I am aware of that assigns 180 volt-amperes (or any other value) to the general purpose receptacles in a residence. I don't think there is a code section that your inspector could cite to back up the 13 outlets ruling, or any other specific number of general purpose outlets on a residential circuit. In a residince, the code regulates the minimum number of general purpose circuits that must be provided, but not the number of outlets on those circuits.
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: Number of receptacle and lighting outlets on 15amp circu
I know that in some areas there are legally adopted amendments that address this. You might look into that.
I know that in some areas there are legally adopted amendments that address this. You might look into that.
Re: Number of receptacle and lighting outlets on 15amp circu
Let me explain why, in my opinion, any rule, local or other wise, that attempts to regulate the number of receptacles on a residential general purpose circuit doesn't really make sense. The number of receptacles on these circuits is driven by convenience and spacing along the wall rather than actual loads that will be connected. Take a bedroom for example. Supose the requirements of 210.52(A) could be met by using say 10 receptacles. Now, suppose the electirian wants to go above the code requirements, making it more convenient for the customer, so he uses 13 receptacles in the room. This is a better installation, and it doesn't increase the likely load that will be supplied by the circuit. Why should we now require him to run another circuit? In my house, in any room, at any give time, probably 2/3 or more of the receptalces have nothing plugged in them.
[ September 10, 2004, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: eprice ]
Let me explain why, in my opinion, any rule, local or other wise, that attempts to regulate the number of receptacles on a residential general purpose circuit doesn't really make sense. The number of receptacles on these circuits is driven by convenience and spacing along the wall rather than actual loads that will be connected. Take a bedroom for example. Supose the requirements of 210.52(A) could be met by using say 10 receptacles. Now, suppose the electirian wants to go above the code requirements, making it more convenient for the customer, so he uses 13 receptacles in the room. This is a better installation, and it doesn't increase the likely load that will be supplied by the circuit. Why should we now require him to run another circuit? In my house, in any room, at any give time, probably 2/3 or more of the receptalces have nothing plugged in them.
[ September 10, 2004, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: eprice ]
volt101
Senior Member
- Location
- New Hampshire
Re: Number of receptacle and lighting outlets on 15amp circu
What about the electrician that wires all the bed room, living room, den, halls, and all the lights, on one 15 amp arc-fault beaker?
What about the electrician that wires all the bed room, living room, den, halls, and all the lights, on one 15 amp arc-fault beaker?
electricman2
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Re: Number of receptacle and lighting outlets on 15amp circu
Maybe they should get out of the trade and get a job selling used cars.
volt101
Senior Member
- Location
- New Hampshire
Re: Number of receptacle and lighting outlets on 15amp circu
If it was 2,000 square feet...
If it was 36,000 square feet...
If it was 2,000 square feet...
If it was 36,000 square feet...
Re: Number of receptacle and lighting outlets on 15amp circu
Well, after all the required circuits per 220 are installed, any of them can have as many receptacles as you could put in the house without weakening the structure.
Actualy, as far as the NEC is concerned, you could put enough to weaken the structure on one circuit, but the building inspector would probably stop this
Roger
Well, after all the required circuits per 220 are installed, any of them can have as many receptacles as you could put in the house without weakening the structure.
Actualy, as far as the NEC is concerned, you could put enough to weaken the structure on one circuit, but the building inspector would probably stop this
Roger
volt101
Senior Member
- Location
- New Hampshire
Re: Number of receptacle and lighting outlets on 15amp circu
Never looked at it that way, but you are right. Don't make the house look like Swiss cheese.
Never looked at it that way, but you are right. Don't make the house look like Swiss cheese.
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: Number of receptacle and lighting outlets on 15amp circu
I agree with eprice on this one. The number of outlets is a matter of design choice, of making the customer happy. It is not a code issue.
I agree with eprice on this one. The number of outlets is a matter of design choice, of making the customer happy. It is not a code issue.
Re: Number of receptacle and lighting outlets on 15amp circu
I believe that the only factor to be considered here is 210.11(B), that where the load is computed on a volt-amperes/square foot basis.....the load shall be evenly proportioned among multioutlet branch circuits within the panelboard(s).
I believe that the only factor to be considered here is 210.11(B), that where the load is computed on a volt-amperes/square foot basis.....the load shall be evenly proportioned among multioutlet branch circuits within the panelboard(s).
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Number of receptacle and lighting outlets on 15amp circu
If the load on the particular circuit is overloaded, the overcurrent device will open - exactly the intended purpose of the circuit protection, whether one or more receptacles are on that ciruit.
If the load on the particular circuit is overloaded, the overcurrent device will open - exactly the intended purpose of the circuit protection, whether one or more receptacles are on that ciruit.
A
a.wayne3@verizon.net
Guest
Re: Number of receptacle and lighting outlets on 15amp circu
Maybe they have a points system like what we had here for years but now no longer required,since adopting 99 code.Before there could be 15 pts. #12
10 pts. #14.Receptacles counted as 2 pts and @light fixture as 1.Then the 3kv came in service calls jumped 50 %.Dimming lights etc.Me I like the other way but $ take control :roll:
Maybe they have a points system like what we had here for years but now no longer required,since adopting 99 code.Before there could be 15 pts. #12
10 pts. #14.Receptacles counted as 2 pts and @light fixture as 1.Then the 3kv came in service calls jumped 50 %.Dimming lights etc.Me I like the other way but $ take control :roll:
Re: Number of receptacle and lighting outlets on 15amp circu
I have wired 3000 sq.ft. custom homes where the owner wanted receptacles every 6' along the wall in every room. 200A service or less calculated load. That figures to be a lot of 1 pole breaker slots using the "points" system. What's the sense in that?
I have wired 3000 sq.ft. custom homes where the owner wanted receptacles every 6' along the wall in every room. 200A service or less calculated load. That figures to be a lot of 1 pole breaker slots using the "points" system. What's the sense in that?
A
a.wayne3@verizon.net
Guest
Re: Number of receptacle and lighting outlets on 15amp circu
I didn`t set it up that way but that was how it was done for along time.There still is an area that does it that way not to far from here.The inspector will count the points on a circuit and tag if over the allowed #`s.Yes it created allot of sub panels when they were not at all necessary in the first place.When this changed it made things a whole lot easier for our company and others too.
I didn`t set it up that way but that was how it was done for along time.There still is an area that does it that way not to far from here.The inspector will count the points on a circuit and tag if over the allowed #`s.Yes it created allot of sub panels when they were not at all necessary in the first place.When this changed it made things a whole lot easier for our company and others too.
- Status