nursing homes

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stevek220 said:
Is it permissible to use HCF in a new nursing home for the rooms critical power plugs and lights ect?
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If the room is a patient care area that is exactly what that cable was designed for. Only other option is metal raceways with insulated equipment grounding conductors installed within.
 
stevebea said:
Are you refering to health care facility otherwise known as hospital grade mc cable?
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Isn't hospital grade MC just a glorified BX with an insulated ground wire?(so to comply with the 2 grounds?)
As in instead of being a 12-3 BX with Black, Red, White it's a 12-3 BX with a Black, GREEN, and white. Or, I guess it would be called a 12-2 BX with an insulated ground, or, I guess you also might call it a HCF MC????
 
stevek220 said:
Is it permissible to use HCF in a new nursing home for the rooms critical power plugs and lights ect?
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For critical power?

I am not an expert but wouldn't this apply?

517.30 Essential Electrical Systems for Hospitals.

(C) Wiring Requirements.

(3) Mechanical Protection of the Emergency System.
The wiring of the emergency systems in hospitals shall be
mechanically protected. Where installed as branch circuits
in patient care areas, the installation shall comply with the
requirements of 517.13(A) and (B). The following wiring
methods shall be permitted:

(1) Nonflexible metal raceways, Type MI cable, or Schedule
80 PVC conduit. Nonmetallic raceways shall not be
used for branch circuits that supply patient care areas.

(2) Where encased in not less than 50 mm (2 in.) of concrete,
Schedule 40 PVC conduit, flexible nonmetallic or jacketed
metallic raceways, or jacketed metallic cable assemblies
listed for installation in concrete. Nonmetallic raceways
shall not be used for branch circuits that supply
patient care areas.

(3) Listed flexible metal raceways and listed metal sheathed
cable assemblies in any of the following:

a. Where used in listed prefabricated medical headwalls

b. In listed office furnishings

c. Where fished into existing walls or ceilings, not otherwise
accessible and not subject to physical damage

d. Where necessary for flexible connection to equipment

(4) Flexible power cords of appliances or other utilization
equipment connected to the emergency system.

(5) Cables for Class 2 or Class 3 systems permitted by Part
VI of this Article, with or without raceways.
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iwire said:
For critical power?

I am not an expert but wouldn't this apply?
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OP needs to further define what he means by "critical power"

First off - he mentions this is a nursing home - the level of care given in this type of facility is usually just general care with maybe a limited number of areas with capability to support more advanced care - but usually only happens in rare cases.

What you quoted is for "Essential systems for Hospitals"

517.2 definition of a hospital -

Hospital. A building or portion thereof used on a 24-hour basis for the medical, psychiatric, obstetrical, or surgical care of four or more inpatients.
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Is a nursing home a hospital?

Add: most resident rooms in nursing homes are just sleeping rooms and not even designated as patient care areas. What they call critical care in a nursing home is more like general care in a hospital, and is typically temporary until the patient is transfered to a facility equipped to provide higher level of care.
 
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kwired said:
OP needs to further define what he means by "critical power"
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'Critical' is an NEC defined term, I assume if he used it he understands it but yes I agree he should clarify if he is using the term correctly.

From 517.2
Critical Branch. A subsystem of the emergency system
consisting of feeders and branch circuits supplying energy
to task illumination, special power circuits, and selected
receptacles serving areas and functions related to patient
care and that are connected to alternate power sources by
one or more transfer switches during interruption of normal
power source.
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The vagueness of the OP was likely why my post said 'Wouldn't this apply'




First off - he mentions this is a nursing home - the level of care given in this type of facility is usually just general care with maybe a limited number of areas with capability to support more advanced care - but usually only happens in rare cases.
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I think you are making huge assumptions, nursing homes can be from basic almost no care to full care.

What you quoted is for "Essential systems for Hospitals"
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Thanks, for telling me what I quoted. :p


Is a nursing home a hospital?
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It certainly can be, and if the OP is using the term critical power that suggests it is.

Add: most resident rooms in nursing homes are just sleeping rooms and not even designated as patient care areas.
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I agree.


What they call critical care in a nursing home is more like general care in a hospital, and is typically temporary until the patient is transferred to a facility equipped to provide higher level of care.
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I guess I am just not as familiar with all nursing homes across the US, I assume you must tour them regularly to make such sweeping statements.

Honestly I feel like I am being given a hard time for bringing up something that if applies could cost the OP a ton of money to correct if it is ignored.

Do I know this is a hospital? Heck no, but was I right to ask the question about 517.30? I think so.
 
A nursing home's "level of care" is something that is well defined by the federal government and that each area of the facility would have to be wired per the highest level possible for that area.

Some areas are basically just apartments while another area might be skilled nursing care very similar to a hospital.

I would think a short meeting with the AHJ and the home's administrator could answer this question.
 
iwire said:
Honestly I feel like I am being given a hard time for bringing up something that if applies could cost the OP a ton of money to correct if it is ignored.
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Or because someone else is wrong. :D


Roger
 
iwire said:
'Critical' is an NEC defined term, I assume if he used it he understands it but yes I agree he should clarify if he is using the term correctly.



The vagueness of the OP was likely why my post said 'Wouldn't this apply'





I think you are making huge assumptions, nursing homes can be from basic almost no care to full care.



Thanks, for telling me what I quoted. :p




It certainly can be, and if the OP is using the term critical power that suggests it is.



I agree.




I guess I am just not as familiar with all nursing homes across the US, I assume you must tour them regularly to make such sweeping statements.

Honestly I feel like I am being given a hard time for bringing up something that if applies could cost the OP a ton of money to correct if it is ignored.

Do I know this is a hospital? Heck no, but was I right to ask the question about 517.30? I think so.
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I have not toured nursing homes and hospitals throughout the country. I have done work in local nursing homes as well as local hospitals and clinics.

I think that health care codes (which I also am not all that familiar with) would likely have a difference in determining what type of facility it is depending on what kind of care is intended to be provided. I have been involved in installing (actually upgrading) emergency power systems in nursing homes a few times - they were nearly 20 years ago and some rules may have changed - but in each of those cases there was only limited number of rooms that were designated as what they called critical care. Those rooms were required to have receptacles connected to emergency power and were treated more like a typical patient room in a hospital but the intent was only for emergency type situations and not for a permanent resident of the facility to spend an indefinite period of time being cared for in this area.

If there are nursing homes that are indeed hospitals why don't they use the name "hospital" instead of "nursing home" in the name of the facility?

I do have a small community hospital that I do regular work for. Majority of the patients that are there on a regular basis are elderly people. Nursing homes typically mostly have elderly people in them but not always. The main difference as far as I am aware of is the type of care the facility provides. They do seem to have different standards about a lot of things than any place that I have worked for that just calls themselves a nursing home.

I gave the 517.2 definition of a hospital in earlier post. Here is the definition of nursing home from 517.2:

Nursing Home. A building or portion of a building used on a 24-hour basis for the housing and nursing care of four or more persons who, because of mental or physical incapacity, might be unable to provide for their own needs and safety without the assistance of another person.

Looks to me like the NEC even considers them to be different.

Based on some of what you have said to me lately - I'm not trying to be a smartass or anything - I feel it is a legitimate question, and also think my resopnses are legitimate concerns. If I am wrong about something that is fine, that is why I ask questions. By all means please correct anything that I have said that is wrong. If it is just a difference of opinion than it is just that - doesn't mean I don't consider what has been said.
 
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