NYC Power Requirements for Fire Alarm

[Deeayen]

I am working on a job where engineer says it is code for Non-Power Limited wires have to be 2 hour rated, not only be in Rigid, but in a 2 hour rated enclosure as well. I looked through NEC 2011 and NYC Electrical Code, but cannot find an answer. Does anyone know where I can find this answer?

 

[gadfly56]

I am working on a job where engineer says it is code for Non-Power Limited wires have to be 2 hour rated, not only be in Rigid, but in a 2 hour rated enclosure as well. I looked through NEC 2011 and NYC Electrical Code, but cannot find an answer. Does anyone know where I can find this answer?

Politely ask the engineer for the exact code references. Do not accept "It's in the NYC electrical code." You want chapter and verse. He won't be able to find it. Now you can start the real conversation.

For what it's worth, virtually nothing he said is correct. NPLFA wiring certainly doesn't have to be 2-hour rated, in rigid and in a 2-hour rated enclosure. IFF you have a venue where total evacuation is not employed, then certain aspects of Pathway Survivability come into play. Notification pathways may be required to have a 2-hour survivability rating (PS Level 2):

12.4.3 Pathway Survivability Level 2. Pathway survivability
Level 2 shall consist of one or more of the following:
(1) 2-hour fire-rated circuit integrity (CI) cable
(2) 2-hour fire-rated cable system [electrical circuit protective
system(s)]
(3) 2-hour fire-rated enclosure or protected area
(4) 2-hour performance alternatives approved by the authority
having jurisdiction

You pick ONE, not all of (1) to (3).

Now, if he was talking about the wiring on the line side of the FACP power supply, AND you are in a PS Level 2 situation, then NFPA 72 requires that the power supply line-side conductors have 2-hour fire protection:

10.5.10.3.1.3 Where survivability of circuits is required by another
section of the Code, equal protection shall be provided
for power supply circuits.

 

[infinity]

Just as a side note NYC is still on the 2008 NEC with local amendments.

 

[gadfly56]

Just as a side note NYC is still on the 2008 NEC with local amendments.

Yes, and you can find the text of Local Law 39 (amendments) on the web.

 

[Deeayen]

Politely ask the engineer for the exact code references. Do not accept "It's in the NYC electrical code." You want chapter and verse. He won't be able to find it. Now you can start the real conversation.

For what it's worth, virtually nothing he said is correct. NPLFA wiring certainly doesn't have to be 2-hour rated, in rigid and in a 2-hour rated enclosure. IFF you have a venue where total evacuation is not employed, then certain aspects of Pathway Survivability come into play. Notification pathways may be required to have a 2-hour survivability rating (PS Level 2):

12.4.3 Pathway Survivability Level 2. Pathway survivability
Level 2 shall consist of one or more of the following:
(1) 2-hour fire-rated circuit integrity (CI) cable
(2) 2-hour fire-rated cable system [electrical circuit protective
system(s)]
(3) 2-hour fire-rated enclosure or protected area
(4) 2-hour performance alternatives approved by the authority
having jurisdiction

You pick ONE, not all of (1) to (3).

Now, if he was talking about the wiring on the line side of the FACP power supply, AND you are in a PS Level 2 situation, then NFPA 72 requires that the power supply line-side conductors have 2-hour fire protection:

10.5.10.3.1.3 Where survivability of circuits is required by another
section of the Code, equal protection shall be provided
for power supply circuits.

Thank you !! I never ran into any problems with the FDNY when it came to rigid and thhn. This was the first time an engineer placed these requirements out and said it was code, but doesn't reference anything.

 

[Deeayen]

Engineer Referenced 700.10D

Engineer Referenced 700.10D

Politely ask the engineer for the exact code references. Do not accept "It's in the NYC electrical code." You want chapter and verse. He won't be able to find it. Now you can start the real conversation.

For what it's worth, virtually nothing he said is correct. NPLFA wiring certainly doesn't have to be 2-hour rated, in rigid and in a 2-hour rated enclosure. IFF you have a venue where total evacuation is not employed, then certain aspects of Pathway Survivability come into play. Notification pathways may be required to have a 2-hour survivability rating (PS Level 2):

12.4.3 Pathway Survivability Level 2. Pathway survivability
Level 2 shall consist of one or more of the following:
(1) 2-hour fire-rated circuit integrity (CI) cable
(2) 2-hour fire-rated cable system [electrical circuit protective
system(s)]
(3) 2-hour fire-rated enclosure or protected area
(4) 2-hour performance alternatives approved by the authority
having jurisdiction

You pick ONE, not all of (1) to (3).

Now, if he was talking about the wiring on the line side of the FACP power supply, AND you are in a PS Level 2 situation, then NFPA 72 requires that the power supply line-side conductors have 2-hour fire protection:

10.5.10.3.1.3 Where survivability of circuits is required by another
section of the Code, equal protection shall be provided
for power supply circuits.

So the engineer came back with reference to NEC 700.10D, which is for Emergency Systems. I responded to the engineer saying that i believe Emergency Systems and Fire Alarm Systems are not the same classification. I interpreted article 700.10D to be used for Generators, ATS, and Emergency Circuits.

Engineer then says, Fire Alarm System Power is Emergency Power which includes transfer switch to Fire Alarm and ConEd to Fire alarm panel. Also said, This part of the FA System is Emergency Circuit as per NYC Building Code.

I do not believe he is right because ATS and Power would go to a Fuse Disconnect, which then would power the FA System...

Am I wrong?

 

[infinity]

You should review the NYC amendments to Article 760 because at 10 pages long they are very extensive.

 

[ron]

The way I determine if the fire alarm power is considered Emergency or not in NYC is by looking in the Building Code.

http://www1.nyc.gov/assets/building...apter_27_Electrical.pdf&section=conscode_2014

For example, if it is a regular B Occupancy for example with occupied floor less than 75 feet above the lowest fire department vehicle access having a gross floor area over 15,000 square feet per floor or a total gross floor area of 100,000 square feet or more, then Section 2702.2.20.1.5 says the fire alarm is Emergency Power.

 

[ryankon518]

See the revision to the NEC 2008 incorporated in the 2011 NYC Electrical Code

 

[gadfly56]

See the revision to the NEC 2008 incorporated in the 2011 NYC Electrical Code

This is for fire alarm wiring on the load side of the fire alarm control unit power supply. It wasn't clear from the OP's post whether these were line side cables or load side cables. In either case, the 2-hour survivability requirement is dependent on the installation type and not a blanket requirement.