Obsolete I/O device

[Electromatic]

I have a customer reporting some issues with a discrete output module made by Busware Direct. There is almost no information anywhere about this manufacturer. I believe the system of which this is a part runs on some kind of Modbus or DeviceNet type of protocol. I've worked with automation and PLCs, but I've never gotten into the details of these kinds of systems. The customer says there may be more modules that are getting iffy. Are there any suggestions of where to start with replacing parts or modifying this kind of setup?

Thanks in advance.

 

[petersonra]

Based on a quick google it appears they are an Action Instruments product which is now owned by Schneider.

You might be able to call the schneider tech support number 1-800-gould-pc and get some advice.

There is a HUGE difference between Modbus and DeviceNet.

Might be time to just replace the bunch of them with something a little more modern. Plenty of I/IO manufacturers out there. Best bet might be some kind of small PLC.

It seems likely you will need some engineering help to replace these things with something newer unless you can find some on ebay or other used parts places.

 

[Electromatic]

It turns out I actually investigated these devices for this customer several years ago and didn't really come up with anything. An email response from Schneider Electric/Eurotherm said that they were obsolete and, "They were a unique field-bus protocol and as such we do not offer any direct replacement."

There are at least a couple of panels full of these modules, so a full replacement will be a big deal. I'm getting together with a local controls guru from one of our supply houses to see if we can figure out what the actual communication protocol is. If it is truly a "unique field-bus protocol", the customer may be SOL.

 

[petersonra]

It turns out I actually investigated these devices for this customer several years ago and didn't really come up with anything. An email response from Schneider Electric/Eurotherm said that they were obsolete and, "They were a unique field-bus protocol and as such we do not offer any direct replacement."

There are at least a couple of panels full of these modules, so a full replacement will be a big deal. I'm getting together with a local controls guru from one of our supply houses to see if we can figure out what the actual communication protocol is. If it is truly a "unique field-bus protocol", the customer may be SOL.

They are not sol. Just need to spend some money. We replace obsolete stuff all the time with new. It is part of the controls life cycle.

We replace obsolete PLCs, I/o, hmis, drives, instruments, even things like terminal blocks. It is just money.

 

[tom baker]

They are not sol. Just need to spend some money. We replace obsolete stuff all the time with new. It is part of the controls life cycle.

We replace obsolete PLCs, I/o, hmis, drives, instruments, even things like terminal blocks. It is just money.

Right on. We used to have budget line item for Control System Upgrades, changed it to Control System Lifecycle replacements, as you need to have a short and long term plan. I worked mainly with Allen Bradley, they were very good about letting us know on lifecycle and obsolete. for example we had loads of SCL500 gear, it was being replaced with Control Logix, while you could still buy SLC 500 stuff, it was very expensive
And I sold a lot of SLC500 stuff to Radwell, and thats a good place to look for used parts
My suggestion is to get a plan and start replacing

 

[petersonra]

Right on. We used to have budget line item for Control System Upgrades, changed it to Control System Lifecycle replacements, as you need to have a short and long term plan. I worked mainly with Allen Bradley, they were very good about letting us know on lifecycle and obsolete. for example we had loads of SCL500 gear, it was being replaced with Control Logix, while you could still buy SLC 500 stuff, it was very expensive
And I sold a lot of SLC500 stuff to Radwell, and thats a good place to look for used parts
My suggestion is to get a plan and start replacing

over the last decade or so we have replaced hundreds of plcs and hmis for customers, often with new I/O, sometimes using existing I/O. it is not that big of a deal most of the time, although it does require some thought, and $$$$$.

 

[jim dungar]

They are not sol. Just need to spend some money. We replace obsolete stuff all the time with new. It is part of the controls life cycle.

I am amazed at the decision makers that buy a new phone every year, but think the electronics (often from low cost suppliers) that run their facilities should have an infinite life.

 

[petersonra]

I am amazed at the decision makers that buy a new phone every year, but think the electronics (often from low cost suppliers) that run their facilities should have an infinite life.

I am amazed at how many people have PLCs and HMIs on critical equipment and cannot find a backup copy of the program when it fails.

 

[jim dungar]

I am amazed at how many people have PLCs and HMIs on critical equipment and cannot find a backup copy of the program when it fails.

Or the proper cable. New operating systems do not have or support the old drivers that relied on comms ports.

 

[gar]

211006-1938 EDT

Electromatic:

What is a "discrete output module"? Be specific.

What are the output specs? AC or DC switch, current rating, voltage rating. For example an OAC5 is a Triac output, 120 V, 3 A unit, with a built in snubber. An ODC5 is a DC output, transistor switch. In both of these devices the input is DC and typical under those numbers 5 V input, and isolated for several thousand volts.

See https://www.opto22.com/products/oac5 .

The next question is what is the input signal to your device? How can you take that signal and drive a standard solid state relay.

You are going to have to dig deeper into what you device is, both input and output.

.

 

[petersonra]

Or the proper cable. New operating systems do not have or support the old drivers that relied on comms ports.

We have boxes of cables and maybe 15 or 20 old computers to support old junk we run into now and then. Unfortunately, Allen Bradley no longer supports some of their own drivers from years ago. So some customers are just out of luck.

 

[retirede]

Right on. We used to have budget line item for Control System Upgrades, changed it to Control System Lifecycle replacements, as you need to have a short and long term plan. I worked mainly with Allen Bradley, they were very good about letting us know on lifecycle and obsolete. for example we had loads of SCL500 gear, it was being replaced with Control Logix, while you could still buy SLC 500 stuff, it was very expensive
And I sold a lot of SLC500 stuff to Radwell, and thats a good place to look for used parts
My suggestion is to get a plan and start replacing

Wow…”SLCxxx” brings back memories!

 

[Electromatic]

Thanks for the discussion, everyone.

I am working out when to get to the customer to investigate their system, but I have a feeling they're probably going to have to get a new system from scratch. I don't think they're a particularly poor company. In fact, I think they've looked into updating this system in the past but always backed out. Of course, now they are facing the point where if this one module or another fails, their production will come to a halt!

I'm also trying to figure out how to stay on the project if/when it comes to a full system replacement. That would be over my head, but I'd love to get the experience as opposed to just handing it off to an engineering/automation company.

 

[petersonra]

Thanks for the discussion, everyone.

I am working out when to get to the customer to investigate their system, but I have a feeling they're probably going to have to get a new system from scratch. I don't think they're a particularly poor company. In fact, I think they've looked into updating this system in the past but always backed out. Of course, now they are facing the point where if this one module or another fails, their production will come to a halt!

I'm also trying to figure out how to stay on the project if/when it comes to a full system replacement. That would be over my head, but I'd love to get the experience as opposed to just handing it off to an engineering/automation company.

If it goes the way we usually do things, the existing cabinet will be gutted and new stuff installed or the old box will be reused and a new sheet iron put in that comes with the new stuff. Either way someone has to do the field work.

 

[gadfly56]

Thanks for the discussion, everyone.

I am working out when to get to the customer to investigate their system, but I have a feeling they're probably going to have to get a new system from scratch. I don't think they're a particularly poor company. In fact, I think they've looked into updating this system in the past but always backed out. Of course, now they are facing the point where if this one module or another fails, their production will come to a halt!

I'm also trying to figure out how to stay on the project if/when it comes to a full system replacement. That would be over my head, but I'd love to get the experience as opposed to just handing it off to an engineering/automation company.

This is the same in fire alarm. We are a Siemens dealer, and Siemens is very good about giving a heads up to their partners about system and component life cycle milestones. For the last 5 years, no new modules have been produced for the MXL addressable panel. We've warned folks that have them that they are living on borrowed time. There was (still is) an upgrade path that lets customers upgrade the front end and keep their old devices, but that was a stop-gap from 10 years ago. Keeping the old devices is just a waste now. Something craps out or they want to do an expansion or renovation; sorry, we told you so. Maybe we have something in the bin-'o-parts from other upgrades that can help, but there will absolutely be no warranty.

 

[GeorgeB]

I am amazed at how many people have PLCs and HMIs on critical equipment and cannot find a backup copy of the program when it fails.

I've one customer with a locked Cutler Hammer MPC-1 from a manufacturer who is out of business. My employer quoted what I thought was a reasonable price to reverse engineer and make the machine work properly, but it was rejected. Cost would likely have been half as much with a copy of the OE program. 3 hours each way from their office and likely a prolonged commissioning.

Baling wire and duct tape; I don't do the support calls anymore.

 

[petersonra]

I've one customer with a locked Cutler Hammer MPC-1 from a manufacturer who is out of business. My employer quoted what I thought was a reasonable price to reverse engineer and make the machine work properly, but it was rejected. Cost would likely have been half as much with a copy of the OE program. 3 hours each way from their office and likely a prolonged commissioning.

Baling wire and duct tape; I don't do the support calls anymore.

We have had to do a few of those kind of jobs. I often wonder what kind of idiot allows himself to have a PLC in the middle of his production that he cannot replace because he does not have the program. Why anyone is dumb enough to allow that escapes me.

 

[tom baker]

Thanks for the discussion, everyone.
I'm also trying to figure out how to stay on the project if/when it comes to a full system replacement. That would be over my head, but I'd love to get the experience as opposed to just handing it off to an engineering/automation company.

Most industrial automation systems have out of date drawings, even fairly new ones.
The maintenance staff will jerry rig and make changes on the fly.
The most valuable service you can provide, and what’s really, absolutely required is to identify and label all field wiring. Often I would go in label all field wiring, and then relocate the existing with wiring. The new would go in its place, and then field wiring reterminated.
I did 75 plus conversions like this
If you can shut the system down that’s best
But it all starts with an as built and wiring labeling